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YEAH, I SHOULD CALL THE MEETING OF THE CITY OF HUBBERT HEIGHTS BOARD.
[ AGENDA BOARD OF ZONING APPEALS City Hall - Council Chambers 6131 Taylorsville Road April 3, 2024 6:00 P.M.]
TO ORDER.MADAM SECRETARY, WILL YOU TAKE THE ROLE PLEASE? MS. BALLARD? HERE.
WE'LL FOLLOW THE AGENDA FOR THE, FOR APRIL THE THIRD, 2024 AS WRITTEN.
UH, THE THIRD ITEM ON THE AGENDA IS TO PROVE OF THE MINUTES.
WE ONLY HAVE ONE SET OF MINUTES FROM MARCH 6TH, UM, MEETING.
IF THERE ARE ANY CONCERNS, CORRECTIONS TO BE MADE TO THOSE MINUTES, PLEASE SPEAK NOW.
AND THOSE CORRECTIONS WERE MADE.
SO FOR THE RECORD, THERE WAS, UH, WHEN THE MINUTES WHEN, WHEN THE MINUTES WAS SUBMITTED, SENT OUT THROUGH EMAIL, THERE WAS, UM, ERRORS FOUND ON, IT WAS CORRECTED.
SO WE WON'T SAY SEEING NO COMMENTS OR CORRECTIONS.
THERE, THERE, THERE, THERE DOES NOT NEED TO BE A ROLL CALL VOTE NEEDED HERE.
ALSO, I NEED, UH, MAY I HAVE A MOTION TO APPROVE THE AGENDA? I'LL MOVE TO APPROVE THE AGENDA FOR BOARD OF ZONING APPEALS.
IT'S BEEN MOVED BY MR. MARCH, MARCH AND SECOND BY MS. BALLARD.
MS. BALLARD, IS THERE A QUESTION ON THE MOTION? SINCE NO QUESTION ON THE MOTION.
THE AGENDA FOR THE TONIGHT WILL BE APPROVED.
WE HAVE A VERY SLIM AGENDA TONIGHT.
BUT HOWEVER, WE DO HAVE ADDITIONAL BUSINESS TO TONIGHT.
UM, WE FORM LAST MONTH THAT TONIGHT WE WOULD HAVE TRAINING.
SO WE WILL HAVE TRAINING AND, UH, ORGANIZATION THAT WILL BE TRAINING TONIGHT IS COMPASS POINT PLANNING.
SO IF YOU WANT TO STEP UP TO THE PODIUM AND IF THERE'S ANYTHING THIS YOU WANT TO SAY, THAT'S IT.
I LOOK, IF I COULD ADD, EXCUSE ME, YOUR NAME FOR THE RECORD.
HI, UH, I'M AARON SLL, THE, UH, CITY PLANNER FOR, UH, HUMAN RIGHTS.
UM, SO WHAT WE HAVE ARE STARTING TO DO IS SOME PROFESSIONAL AND BOARD DEVELOPMENT TRAINING FOR ALL OF THE BOARDS, UH, RELATED TO LAND USE.
UM, BZA IS THE FIRST BOARD BECAUSE WE HAD BASICALLY AN OPEN AGENDA FOR THIS MONTH.
UH, AND WE WILL CARRY ON THIS, UH, THIS BOARD DEVELOPMENT TO, UM, THE PLANNING COMMISSION PROBABLY IN MAY OR JUNE WHEN I THINK OUR AGENDA'S GONNA BE LIGHT, UH, THAT MONTH AS WELL.
SO, AS FAR AS PLANNING COMMISSION, WE HAVE ALSO, UH, EVERYONE IS NOW A MEMBER OF THE AMERICAN PLANNING ASSOCIATION.
UH, WE'RE GONNA EXTEND THAT TO, UH, THE BZA AS WELL, IF YOU WERE INTERESTED, UM, JUST TO PROVIDE ADDITIONAL AND PROFESSIONAL DEVELOPMENT OPPORTUNITIES FOR, UH, FOR THE BOARD MEMBERS.
SO, UM, WITH THAT, I WILL TURN IT OVER TO WENDY.
WELL THANK YOU FOR SHARING THAT INFORMATION.
SO, HELLO, MY NAME IS WENDY MOLER.
I AM A COMMUNITY PLANNER OUTTA COMPASS POINT PLANNING.
I'M ACTUALLY OUTTA CINCINNATI, OHIO.
I'VE BEEN A CONSULTING PLANNER FOR 28 YEARS, 29 YEARS, SOMETHING LIKE THAT.
UH, EVER SINCE I GRADUATED FROM THE UNIVERSITY OF CINCINNATI.
SO I SPEND MOST OF MY DAYS IN MANY OF MY EVENINGS, UM, WORKING ON COMPREHENSIVE PLANS AND ZONING ORDINANCES FOR COMMUNITIES ALL OVER THE US.
UM, I'VE ALSO SAT ON A BOARD MYSELF.
I LIVE IN A TOWNSHIP AND SAT ON THE ZONING COMMISSION.
SO I'VE BEEN ON THE DAIS MYSELF FOR A NUMBER OF YEARS BEFORE CONSULTING.
GOT IN THE WAY AND I HAD TO GO DO EVENING MEETINGS EVERYWHERE ELSE.
SO I'VE DONE A LOT OF, I I'VE SERVED ON THE BOARDS AND I'VE ALSO DONE A LOT OF THIS TRAINING, PARTICULARLY IN THE LAST COUPLE YEARS.
A LOT OF COMMUNITIES HAVE PICKED UP ON, UM, KIND OF, UH, YOU KNOW, GIVING THEIR BOARDS OPPORTUNITIES TO UNDERSTAND A LITTLE BIT MORE ABOUT SOME THINGS THEY SHOULD BE DOING OR UNDERSTANDING OF THE IMPLICATIONS OF THEIR WORK AND JUST BEING A BETTER BOARD MEMBER.
I WORK WITH A LOT OF COMMUNITIES ALSO IN KENTUCKY, WHERE I WAS MENTIONING TO ERIN EARLIER, THIS IS REQUIRED FOR ALL, EVERY ONE OF THEIR BOARD, PUBLIC BOARD MEMBERS HAVE TO HAVE LIKE EIGHT HOURS OF TRAINING EVERY TWO YEARS.
UM, SO WE'RE NOT QUITE THERE, BUT IT'S GOOD THAT YOU'RE OPEN TO THIS OPPORTUNITY.
UM, SO TONIGHT, I WANNA KEEP THIS REALLY INFORMAL.
I KNOW YOU ALL MOVED HERE, BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN YOU GET TO
SO, UM, AS, AS WE'RE GOING THROUGH HERE, IF YOU HAVE ANY QUESTIONS, PLEASE PIPE UP.
UM, ACTUALLY SOME OF THE BEST DISCUSSIONS ON THIS TRAINING COME FROM, YOU KNOW, LIKE KIND OF LINGERING QUESTIONS YOU MIGHT HAVE.
AND, UH, WHILE I HAVE A POWERPOINT HERE, I'M CERTAINLY GOING TO BE PEPPERING IT WITH SOME ANECDOTES OF WHAT I'VE WITNESSED.
I WON'T BE NAMING NAMES IN THE BAD CASES BECAUSE
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SOME OF THEM ARE IN SOUTHWEST OHIO.UH, SO YOU MAY BE FAMILIAR WITH THE COMMUNITIES.
UM, BUT SOME THINGS ARE, ARE GOOD THINGS.
AND YOU KNOW, FOR EXAMPLE, ONE OF THE THINGS I DID IN RESEARCHING AND PUTTING THIS TOGETHER WAS YOU DO, THE CITY HAS A, LIKE A, A HANDBOOK FOR THE BOARDS, WHICH IS MUCH BETTER THAN MOST COMMUNITIES HAVE.
UM, SOME COMMUNITIES HAVE A LITTLE BIT OF A GUIDE OR BYLAWS, BUT I THOUGHT THAT WAS ACTUALLY PRETTY IMPRESSIVE.
UM, AND, YOU KNOW, GETS A LITTLE BIT TOO INTO SOME OF EVERYTHING WE'RE GONNA BE TALKING ABOUT.
SO THIS, THIS IS JUST REALLY MEANT TO BUILD ON THAT.
I THOUGHT WE WOULD START REAL QUICK.
IF WE COULD JUST GO AROUND AND KIND OF GIMME A LITTLE BIT OF YOUR BACKGROUND AND HOW LONG YOU'VE BEEN ON THE BOARD.
JUST FOR MY BACKGROUND INFORMATION.
I'VE BEEN ON THE BOARD SINCE 21, I THINK.
UM, JUST GOT A REAL ESTATE LICENSE AS WELL ON THE SIDE.
ALWAYS HAVE MORE THAN ONE IRON IN THE FIRE.
I'VE BEEN ON THE BOARD FOR ABOUT FIVE YEARS NOW.
UH, DID ABOUT 27 YEARS IN LAW ENFORCEMENT.
I'M NOW WORKING AS A REALTOR AND AN AUCTIONEER.
I'VE BEEN BEING ON A BOARD FOR HUT SINCE 1996.
UM, THIS IS THE SECOND BOARD THAT I'VE BEEN ON.
I WAS ON THE PROPERTY MAINTENANCE FOR A LONG TIME.
UH, BESIDES DOING THIS, UM, I WORK, UH, AT INTEL DOING INSPECTIONS AND ON THE OUT ON THE OUTSIDE I DO A LOT OF TRAINING WITH, UH, ADULTS AND YOUTH WITH, UH, SEVERAL ORGANIZATIONS THAT I'M WITH.
UM, I'M SHEILA BALLARD AND I WAS ON THE, UM, PROPERTY.
I WAS ON THAT SAME BOARD FOR ABOUT, I THINK IT WAS ABOUT THREE YEARS.
AND I'VE JUST BEEN ON THIS BOARD NOW FOR ABOUT A MONTH.
AND, UM, PREVIOUSLY WHEN I LIVED IN SPRINGFIELD, OHIO, I WAS ON THE SPRINGFIELD CITY COMMISSION.
SO I AM A LITTLE FAMILIAR WITH ALL OF THIS.
UM, I RETIRED IN SEPTEMBER LAST YEAR, BUT WENT BACK TO WORK MARCH THE 18TH.
SO, 'CAUSE I GOT BORED AND COULD NO LONGER SIT AT HOME.
BEEN ON THE BOARD FOR ABOUT, UH, A LITTLE OVER A YEAR NOW.
AND, UM, I'M RETIRED FROM OUT AT THE BASE, 35 YEARS.
UM, MASTER'S DEGREE IN PUBLIC ADMINISTRATION.
YOU INTRODUCE YOURSELF A LITTLE BIT, BUT YOU CAN GET SURE.
I WORK HERE AT THE CITY FOR PLANNING ZONING.
UM, I'VE BEEN HERE FOR SIX YEARS.
I MANAGED ZONING AND CODE ENFORCEMENT.
UH, I'VE BEEN IN THE CITY FOR 16 YEARS.
PRIOR TO THAT I'VE BEEN THREE, THREE YEARS.
WELL, WHAT I WAS GONNA START WITH WAS PROBABLY SOME OF THE STUFF YOU'RE LIKE, WE ALREADY KNOW THIS, WENDY, BUT I ALWAYS LIKE TO GO BACK OVER YOUR RULES.
AND ALSO I DO A LITTLE RESEARCH BEFORE I COME INTO THESE.
SO, UM, SOME OF THIS MAY BE ENLIGHTENING WHERE I ACTUALLY WENT THROUGH AND WAS LIKE, WHERE DOES IT SAY THE BOARD HAS A RESPONSIBILITY? 'CAUSE IT'S NOT ALL JUST IN ONE SPOT.
UM, AND SO, YOU KNOW, YOU'VE GOT, YOU'RE KIND OF ADDRESSED IN A COUPLE OF MAIN SECTIONS, BUT LIKE MOST COMMUNITIES, MOST CITIES, YOU ARE IN THE CHARTER AS AN ESTABLISHED BOARD.
UM, AND IT SETS OUT THE BASICS OF YOU'RE REALLY, YOU'RE REALLY THERE FOR VARIANCES AND APPEALS.
THAT'S, THAT'S ABOUT A STANDARD A A ROLE OF A BOARD OF ZONING APPEALS AS ANYTHING.
THERE ARE SOME BOARD OF APPEALS OUT THERE THAT DO, UH, CONDITIONAL USES, BUT IN CITIES, A LOT OF TIMES THAT'S PUT INTO THE PLANNING COMMISSIONS, UH, AUTHORITY AND TOWNSHIPS, THEIR BOARD OF ZONING APPEALS IS REQUIRED TO DO CONDITIONAL USES.
UM, BUT THEN IT ALSO GIVES YOU A LITTLE BIT MORE ABOUT WHAT YOU CAN DO IN OTHER, YOU KNOW, OTHER AREAS.
SO THEN WE MOVE ON TO CHAPTER 1127, WHICH IS ALL ABOUT THE BOARD.
UM, AND IT KIND OF BUILDS ON THAT REFERENCING THE CHARTER, WHICH KIND OF SETS UP YOUR, YOUR TERMS AND ALL THAT.
AND IT SETS OUT THE RULES OF VOTING, WHICH IS, IS KIND OF A CRITICAL PIECE.
UM, YOU KNOW, THREE MEMBERS MAKES THE QUORUM AND YOU HAVE TO HAVE CONCURRENCE OF THREE TO MOVE ANYTHING FORWARD, OVERTURN ANYTHING, AND DO THAT KIND OF WORK.
NOT EVERYBODY SPELLS THAT OUT.
I'M ALWAYS A LITTLE SHOCKED WHEN IT'S NOT SPELLED OUT.
AND SO, AND I PREFER THE WAY YOU DO VOTING BECAUSE THAT MEANS NO MATTER WHAT, EVERY DECISION OF THE BZA IS, ESSENTIALLY, IF YOU HAVE TO HAVE THREE, IT'S ALWAYS, NO MATTER THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE THAT SHOW UP, GONNA BE A MAJORITY OF THE BOARD MEMBERSHIP.
SO IT'S KIND OF LIKE A, HAVING A CONSISTENT, LIKE WE ALL,
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WE KNOW THAT THREE PEOPLE, NO MATTER IF FIVE PEOPLE ARE THERE, FOUR PEOPLE ARE THERE, THREE PEOPLE THERE, WE ALWAYS GET A MAJORITY OF IT THAT VOTE ONE WAY.AND THEN MORE IMPORTANTLY, IT SETS OUT CRITERIA FOR THE DECISION ON APPEALS AND VARIANCES.
AND AGAIN, THIS IS KIND OF THE ONE SECTION OF THE CODE THAT YOU SHOULD ALMOST ALWAYS HAVE IN FRONT OF YOU WHEN YOU HAVE HEARINGS BECAUSE THIS IS WHAT YOU NEED TO BE LOOKING AT WHEN MAKING YOUR DECISIONS, WHAT YOU SHOULD BE SPEAKING TO, YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU'RE MAKING YOUR MOTIONS AND THE LIKE.
UM, NOW THE OTHER THING, LIKE I SAID, IS I WAS LIKE, WELL, SOMETIMES THERE'S SUPER SECRET RULES THAT ARE, THAT ARE KIND OF SPRINKLED THROUGHOUT A ZONING CODE THAT KIND OF MENTION A BOARD OF APPEALS.
AND YOU DO HAVE THOSE IN THERE'S AS WELL.
I'VE NEVER ACTUALLY SEEN THIS IS, I WILL TELL YOU, THIS IS THE FIRST CODE I'VE EVER REVIEWED WHERE I'VE SEEN THAT A BOARD OF ZONING APPEALS HAS THE AUTHORITY TO INITIATE A ZONING TAX AMENDMENT OR A ZONING MAP AMENDMENT.
NOW, DO I THINK THAT'S WRONG? NO.
AND DO I THINK ONE COMMUNITY WOULDN'T ENTERTAIN IT? NO, BUT I THOUGHT THAT WAS INTERESTING.
AND THE REASON BEING IS A LOT OF TIMES THE BOARD OF ZONING APPEALS IS AN INDICATOR FOR WHERE THINGS ARE CONSISTENTLY WRONG IN THE ZONING CODE.
SO IF YOU'RE ALWAYS GETTING APPLICATIONS FOR VARIANCES BECAUSE YOU KNOW, AND YOU'RE ALWAYS APPROVING THEM BECAUSE IT MAKES SENSE, THEN THERE'S LIKE, LET'S SAY A FENCE SETBACK OR A FENCE HEIGHT, THEN THERE'S PROBABLY SOMETHING THAT NEEDS TO BE FIXED IN THE ZONING CODE.
SO IT KIND OF MAKES SENSE THAT YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO INITIATE THE SAY, HEY, WE SHOULD PROBABLY LOOK AT FIXING THIS SO WE'RE NOT ALWAYS REVIEWING THIS.
UM, AND I ONCE WAS DOING A TRAINING AT THE LOCAL PLANNING AND ZONING WORKSHOP, AND I HAD SOME BOARD MEMBER, I DON'T REMEMBER WHICH CITY IT WAS COME UP AND, YOU KNOW, I SAID, IF YOU'RE CONSTANTLY SEEING THESE PROBLEMS, FIX YOUR CODE.
AND HE CAME UP AND HE'S LIKE, WE CONSTANTLY HAVE LIKE 20 HEARINGS A MEETING.
AND I WAS LIKE, Y YOU'VE GOT A PROBLEM.
YOU KNOW, BECAUSE THEY WERE ALWAYS SEEING, IT WAS ALWAYS SIGNS, IT WAS ALWAYS FENCES.
UM, AND IT WAS ALWAYS ACCESSORY BUILDINGS WITH A THI.
SO I THINK YOUR, YOUR BOARD IS A GOOD INDICATOR FOR ISSUES WITH THE ZONING CODE.
SO I I WAS IMPRESSED THAT IT WAS IN THERE THAT YOU COULD INITIATE IT.
CAN I ASK YOU A QUESTION? YES, PLEASE.
I, ONE OF MY GOALS FOR THIS YEAR IS TO WORK ON AMENDMENTS, I THINK TO BE MADE SOME CHANGES, ADDITIONS, ET CETERA.
THERE'S, BECAUSE THERE'S SOME, IN SOME CASES, VERY OBSCURE MY WAY TO KEY AREAS THAT SAY, HEY, THESE FOLKS ARE PROHIBITED FROM THE VARIOUS, FOR INSTANCE, ON OUR PARKING.
BUT YOU DON'T FIND THAT IN THE PARKING.
YOU FIND THAT IN THE BZA RESPONSIBILITIES.
SO I'VE DONE SEVERAL SUGGESTIONS ALONG THE LINES OF WALTER SITE, THE ONES WE GET ALL THE TIME, PATIO COVER, HEIGHT, SHED PLACEMENTS.
ARE THESE FOLKS ABLE TO VIEW THOSE, REVIEW THEM AND, AND, AND, AND ACT THEM? OR, BECAUSE I ALWAYS SHARE THOSE ERROR, RIGHT? THAT CAN TAKE A LOOK FOR I IS THAT WITHIN THEIR BOUNDARIES? SO OBVIOUSLY THEY, THEY WOULD, I MEAN, YOU CAN GO TO YOU, THEY COULD, YOU KNOW, ANY OF STAFF COULD GO AND SAY, HEY, THIS IS WHAT WE'RE THINKING ABOUT DOING TO JUST GET YOUR INPUT.
BUT AS FAR AS ACTING ON 'EM, NO, THAT'S IN THE LEGISLATIVE ACTION.
SO THAT WOULD 'CAUSE BECAUSE OHIO REVISED CODE, THAT'S WHY WHEN YOU SAY THAT, WELL, YOU'RE A CHARTER COMMUNITY, SO YOU COULD MAKE UP WHATEVER YOU WANT, BUT IT'S STILL, YOU'RE LIKE EVERY OTHER CHARTER COMMUNITY, RIGHT? THE LEGISLATIVE ACTIONS GO TO PLANNING COMMISSION AND COUNCIL.
BUT YOU CAN, YOU, A LOT OF TIMES WHEN THERE'S CODE UPDATES, YOU COULD COME TO THEM AND SAY, HEY, DO YOU THINK THIS WOULD SOLVE OUR PROBLEM WHILE, LIKE, WOULD THIS TAKE MORE LOAD OFF THE BZA? YOU'RE RIGHT.
SO WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IS IF THE BCA MADE A MOTION TO AMEND THE RECOMMEND AMENDING THE CODE FOR X, Y, AND Z, THAT WOULD AUTOMATICALLY THEN GO FOR PLANNING COMMISSION.
AND YOU WOULD HAVE TO WORK ON THAT.
SO WHEN IT GO TO THE PLANNING COMMISSION, YOU WOULD PRESENT IT TO THE CITY COUNCIL BECAUSE WOULDN'T THEY HAVE TO HAVE A VOTE ON THAT TO SAY YAY AND NAY TO REMOVE IT OR REVISE IT? YEAH.
THE WAY THE ORDINANCE WORKS IS, UH, SO, SO, UM, THE BZA WOULD ESSENTIALLY SEND IT TO YOU? YEAH.
IT BASICALLY DIRECTS THE STAFF OF PLANNING COMMISSION TO DO X, Y, OR Z.
AND THEN WE WOULD TAKE THAT AS A RECOMMENDATION TO THE PLANNING COMMISSION.
THE PLANNING COMMISSION COULD MAKE THAT RECOMME RECOMMENDATION OR NOT, AND THEN IT WOULD GO TO COUNSEL FOR THE ULTIMATE DECISION.
FOR EXAMPLE, IF WE HAVE, SAY WE GOT A, AND WE GET THESE PERIODICALLY, SOMEBODY HAS A A THEIR LOT AND IT'S A CORNER LOT, SO THEY HAVE TWO FRONT YARDS ROAD FRONTAGE.
AND WE WOULD GET THOSE EXCEPTIONS FOR, HEY, I WANNA PUT A GARDEN SHED OUT HERE.
WELL, YES, BUT THAT'S ALSO YOUR FRONT YARD AND YOU CAN'T HAVE ONE IN YOUR FRONT YARD.
SOMETHING LIKE THAT WHERE WE COULD SAY, OBVIOUSLY BASED ON THE PLANE OF THE BACK OF THE HOUSE, THAT THIS IS AN ACCEPTABLE PLACEMENT WOULD BE SOMETHING WE MIGHT SUGGEST FOR PLANNING.
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WELL, GO AHEAD,I WAS GONNA SAY, I KNEW YOU WERE GOING, HERE'S, HERE'S WHAT I WOULD, HERE'S HONESTLY WHAT I THINK WHAT HAPPEN IN YOUR CASE, EVEN THOUGH YOU HAVE THE POWER TO INITIATE IT.
WELL, YOU HAVE THE POWER TO INITIATE IT WITH THIS.
BUT ALL IT IS, IS SAYING, WE THINK YOU SHOULD MAKE THESE CHANGES.
THAT'S, THAT'S YOUR POWER IS TO MAKE THAT DECISION.
YOU AREN'T MAKING THE DECISION TO CHANGE 'EM.
SO WHAT IS MORE LIKELY TO HAPPEN IS YOU TO MAKE, MAKE SUGGESTIONS TO AARON OR DON THAT HEY, YOU KNOW, LIKE YOU SAID, WE KEEP GETTING THESE WEIRD SCENARIOS WITH CORNER LOTS.
LIKE HOW COULD WE ADDRESS THAT? YOU WOULD MAKE IT TO THEM AND THEN THEY WOULD WORK TO GET IT THROUGH.
SO THEY WOULD JUST THEN TAKE IT TO PLANNING COMMISSION AND HAVE PLANNING COMMISSION INITIATED.
HOWEVER, IN THAT CASE, I THINK, YOU KNOW, IT GOES THROUGH IS HAVING DISCUSSIONS ON WHAT WORKS.
SO THE VERY EXAMPLE THAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT IS, YOU KNOW, UM, I SEE THAT QUITE OFTEN IS, WELL, WE DON'T REALLY STILL WANT IT IN THE OTHER FRONT YARD, BUT MAYBE ON CORNER LOTS WE MAKE AN EXCEPTION.
AND NOW IT CAN BE IN THEIR SIDE OR REAR.
SO THEY GET KIND OF TOO, YOU KNOW, A LITTLE BIT MORE OF AN ADJUSTMENT BECAUSE THEY ARE HAVE TWO FRONT, BUT MOST PEOPLE STILL DON'T WANT IN THE FRONT.
SO THERE COULD BE ALL THESE THINGS THAT YOU COULD HELP WORK OUT, BUT ULTIMATELY PLANNING COMMISSION MAKES A RECOMMENDATION IN COUNCIL, RIGHT? IT'S JUST THE WAY IT'S WRITTEN IN 11 30 0 3 IS YOU, YOU LITERALLY, IF YOU ALL WANTED TO, YOU COULD COME OUT AND SAY, LET'S SAY IT'S JUST A MATTER OF YOU FOUND A MISTAKE, YOU KNOW, IT'S, IT'S SOMETHING, SOMETHING IS 10 FOOT SETBACK.
AND YOU WERE LIKE, YEAH, THIS IS, THIS ISN'T WORKING OUT.
WE KEEP SEEING THIS AND WE KEEP AGREEING.
YOU IN THE, THE CURRENT CODE CAN MAKE A RECOMMEND, UH, MAKE A RECOMMENDATION TO PLANNING COMMISSION OR COUNSEL TO INITIATE A ZONING AMENDMENT TO CHANGE 10 FEET TO FIVE FEET OR WHATEVER IT MAY BE.
AND THEN PLANNING COMMISSION GOES THROUGH THE LEGISLATIVE PROCESS, OR YOU CAN, YOU CAN SUGGEST CHANGES TO STAFF AND STAFF WILL, OR TAKE IT THROUGH IT.
SO IT'S JUST, IT'S VERY UNIQUE THAT, UH, THAT THE, A CODE WOULD SAY, HEY, YOU, YOU COULD LITERALLY MAKE A RECOMMENDATION TO INITIATE HIS ZONING AMENDMENT WITH A SPECIFIC CHANGE IN MIND.
SO, AND THEN SOME OF THE OTHER THINGS, AND THIS DON YOU MAY BE LIKE, YEP, THAT'S WHAT I WANNA MAKE THE CHANGES FOR.
BUT, UM, THERE'S A COUPLE OF DISTRICTS, NOT ALL OF THEM, THE AG DISTRICT, THE B ONE DISTRICT AND B TWO AND B THREE DISTRICT, WHERE DEPENDING ON IF IT'S A PRINCIPAL USE OR ACCESSORY USE, YOU HAVE A, THERE IS A, A SNEAKY LITTLE PROVISION IN THAT THAT GIVES YOU WHAT WE CALL A SIMILAR USE PROVISION.
SO SOMEBODY WANTS TO DO SOMETHING THAT PROBABLY IS VERY SIMILAR IN LINE.
I USED TO DESCRIBE IT THIS WAY.
CODES USED TO BE WRITTEN VERY SPECIFICALLY AND THEY USED TO SAY, YOU CAN DO RECORD STORES.
AND THEN WHEN CDS CAME ALONG, EVERYBODY'S LIKE, WHERE DO WE ALLOW CDS? SO A CD STORE, YOU KNOW, THAT KIND OF THING.
I DON'T KNOW WHY YOU ONLY GET THAT AUTHORITY IN LIKE THREE DISTRICTS, AND IN SOME CASES IT'S ONLY THE ACCESSORY USES.
MAYBE THAT'S A PROVISION THAT SHOULD BE EVERYWHERE OR NOT.
UM, BUT THAT'S SOMETHING IN THOSE DISTRICTS, IF SOMEBODY CAME UP WITH SOMETHING THAT THEY WERE LIKE, AH, THIS IS REALLY VERY CLOSE TO THIS, THEY WOULD COME TO YOU.
UM, IT'S NOT SPECIFIED THE PROCEDURE, BUT I WOULD ASSUME IT'S SIMILAR IN LINE.
YOU WOULD PROBABLY USE THE SAME PRO PROCEDURE YOU WOULD WITH A VARIANCE.
UM, THERE IS A COUPLE OF USES SPRINKLED THROUGHOUT THERE, AND I DON'T, AGAIN, I, THIS IS ONE THAT I WAS LIKE, WELL, THAT'S AN INTERESTING STATEMENT.
SO IN LIKE THE B THREE DISTRICT DRIVE IN EATING AND DRINKING ESTABLISHED SUMMER GARDENS, WHICH I'M ASSUMING IS LIKE A BEER GARDEN
BUT IN THIS CASE, YOU'RE BEING ALLOWED THAT AUTHORITY TO DO IT.
UM, DUMPS AND GARBAGE DISPOSALS IN I TWO GRAVEL PIT PITS IN THIS, IN THIS THE CONSERVATION DISTRICT, ALL OF THOSE ARE ONES THAT WOULD GO TO YOU PER THE CODE.
UM, AND THEN BEYOND THAT, THERE'S A COUPLE OF, YOU KNOW, SCENARIOS WHERE THERE, YOU'RE KIND OF CALLED OUT SPECIFICALLY.
I THINK YOU HAD JUST MENTIONED THAT LIKE, YOU OBVIOUSLY HAVE VARIANCE PROCEDURES, BUT THEN THERE WAS ONE EXTRA VARIANCE CONDITION I FOUND FOR SCREENING IN LIKE THE I TWO DISTRICT OR SOMETHING WHERE YOU COULD, YOU COULD AUTHORIZE A VARIANCE, BUT IT HAD TO HAVE A SPECIFIC FINDING FROM YOU RELATED TO SCREENING.
SO THAT, THAT'S ONE OF THOSE THINGS WHERE THERE'S ABOUT A HANDFUL, I THINK I FOUND ABOUT 20 REFERENCES TO THE BOARD OF ZONING APPEALS AS OUTSIDE OF THOSE CHAPTERS THAT ARE PROBABLY A VERY RARE OCCURRENCE.
IT'S NOT LIKE EVERYBODY'S TRYING TO BUILD A GRAVEL PIT HERE, BUT IT, YOU, YOUR AUTHORITY LIES OUTSIDE OF JUST VARIANCES AND APPEALS.
SO SPEAKING OF VARIANCES, I KNOW THIS IS SMALL, BUT YOU'VE PROBABLY SEEN THIS LIST BEFORE, BUT I ALWAYS LIKE TO SHARE THIS LIST, UM, BECAUSE I'LL TELL YOU WHAT, OH, AGAIN, EVEN IF THIS ISN'T SPECIFIED IN ORDINANCES, THIS IS LEGITIMATELY OUTTA CASE LAW, THE DUNCAN FACTORS.
UM, AND THEN YOU EVEN HAVE A PROVISION THAT FOLLOWS
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THIS, THAT YOU COULD, YOU KNOW, YOU COULD, YOU COULD AS A BOARD OF ZONING APPEALS REQUIRE ADDITIONAL INFORMATION OR, UM, OR HAVE ADDITIONAL CRITERIA THAT MAY BE RELEVANT TO IT.SO I THINK GRAVEL PITS IS A VERY GOOD ONE.
YOU KNOW, THERE'S PROBABLY GONNA BE SOME CONSIDERATIONS OUTSIDE OF THESE THAT YOU WOULD WANNA TAKE INTO ACCOUNT.
UM, BUT THESE ARE ONES THAT YOU, YOU LOOK AT INDIVIDUALLY AND SOME MAY APPLY, SOME MAY NOT, SOME MAY HAVE A MARGINAL APPLICATION.
UM, AND HOPEFULLY WHAT STAFF IS DOING AND WHAT THE APPLICANTS ARE DOING IS THEY'RE, THEY'RE TELLING YOU FIRST AND FOREMOST HOW THEY THINK IT MEETS IT.
SO YOU'RE NOT THE ONE DOING ALL THE INVESTIGATIVE WORK.
THE BURDEN OF PROOF IS GONNA BE ON THEM.
THE OTHER THING YOU HAVE IS, UM, YOU KNOW, THESE ADDITIONAL CRITERIA FOR SIGN VARIANCES, WHICH PERSONALLY I DO A LOT OF WORK IN SIGNS, AND I COMPLETELY AGREE WITH HAVING THIS BECAUSE MOST PEOPLE ARE JUST ASKING FOR MORE SIGNAGE 90% OF THE TIME.
ARE THERE SCENARIOS WHERE IT'S KIND OF A QUIRKY THING? LIKE YEAH, YOU'VE GOT A WEIRD STREET FRONTAGE WHERE, YOU KNOW, THEY DON'T HAVE THE FRONTAGE THEY NEED TO GET THE SIGN.
THAT, THAT IS WHAT THE PURPOSE OF THE VARIANCE IS.
BUT I CAN'T TELL YOU HOW MANY TIMES I'VE COME ACROSS PEOPLE JUST BEING LIKE, I'M GONNA GO ASK THE BZA BECAUSE, EH, IT'S NOT VERY EXPENSIVE TO APPLY.
SO WHAT, YOU KNOW, WHAT'S THE, THE HARM IN ASKING FOR IT? SO THESE ARE JUST ONES THAT YOU WOULD PULL IN ADDITION TO THAT.
AND THEN AS I MENTIONED, I THINK I ONLY FOUND IT WAS SCREENING.
THERE WAS LIKE ONE OR TWO OTHER SECTIONS OF THE CODE THAT HAD, IF A VARIANCE IS REQUESTED, YOU NEED TO MAKE THIS ADDITIONAL FINDING.
SO WITH APPEALS, UNLIKE VARIANCES, THERE ISN'T THIS LONG LIST OF CRITERIA.
BASICALLY YOU ARE, YOU'RE SEEKING OUT IS THERE AN ERROR, HAS AN ERROR BEEN MADE, AN ERROR IN INTERPRETATION? UM, AND THAT, YOU KNOW, THAT CAN, THAT CAN HAPPEN.
UM, BUT WHEN YOUR PZA A APPEALS ARE KIND OF APPEALED, WHEN YOUR DECISIONS ARE APPEALED, THEN THERE'S A CRITICAL PIECE WHERE YOUR RECORD IS WHAT THE COMMON PLEA JUDGE IS GONNA BE LOOKING AT.
SO I'M JUST, THAT'S KIND OF A PRECURSOR TO THE DISCUSSION WE'LL HAVE LATER ON TO THAT AND THE IMPORTANCE OF THOSE COMPLETE RECORDS.
BECAUSE ONCE IT GOES INTO THE COURT, IF YOU DON'T HAVE A RECORD THAT HE CAN FOLLOW OR HE, SHE CAN FOLLOW ALONG WITH, IF IT LOOKS LIKE YOU WERE JUST LIKE, NO, WE, WE TURN YOU DOWN, THE JUDGE WILL REOPEN THE CASE.
AND NOW YOU'VE GOT SOMEBODY ELSE OUTSIDE OF THE CITY MAKING DECISIONS ON BEHALF OF THE CITY BECAUSE THEY'LL JUST, THEY, THEY CAN ACCEPT NEW EVIDENCE.
THEY'RE ESSENTIALLY HAVING AN ENTIRELY DIFFERENT HEARING VERSUS IF YOU HAVE A VERY STRONG RECORD THAT ANYBODY CAN KIND OF FOLLOW ALONG AND UNDERSTAND HOW YOU GOT TO THE DECISION, THE JUDGE CAN KIND OF JUST RULE ON THAT WITHOUT OPENING IT UP TO ANY ADDITIONAL EVIDENCE.
SO YOU WANT REALLY GOOD RECORDS IF THIS IS GONNA GET APPEALED.
SO I MENTIONED THE, THE HANDBOOK, AGAIN, I THINK IT'S REALLY GREAT.
IT'S, UM, KIND OF A, IT DOESN'T REALLY GET INTO THE INDIVIDUAL ROLES OR AUTHORITIES OF, OF MUCH OF EACH OF THE, THE BOARDS YOU HAVE HERE.
UM, BUT I THINK IT ACTUALLY HAS A LOT OF GREAT CLARIFICATION ON THE TOPICS BRENDA DISCUSSED TONIGHT.
I ENTERTAIN THE IDEA OF LAYING OUT THE, I DON'T KNOW, IT'S LIKE 10 OR 15 ITEMS OF THE CODE OF ETHICS.
UM, BUT A LOT OF THOSE ARE ALREADY COVERED IN THIS DISCUSSION.
AND, YOU KNOW, I DON'T THINK WE NEED TO REPEAT IT, BUT HAVING THAT CLEAR GUIDANCE, I THINK IS HALF THE BATTLE.
AND, YOU KNOW, YOU BEING KIND OF THAT UNBIASED DECISION MAKING BOARD THERE.
SO THE REST OF THIS IS ALL LIKE ABOUT BEING THE BEST BOARD, YOU KNOW, MEMBER YOU CAN BE.
AND AGAIN, THE THINGS YOU NEED TO KEEP ABOUT, UH, KEEPING WITH, SO IN THE, I DIDN'T PUT IT IN HERE, BUT THE HANDBOOK KIND OF STATES THAT THE ROLE OF THE BOARDS IS TO BE ADVISORY TO CITY COUNCIL, WHICH IS KIND OF TRUE, EXCEPT YOU'RE NOT, YOU'RE NOT LIKE A PLANNING COMMISSION, YOU'RE NOT MAKING RECOMMENDATION TO COUNCIL.
YOU GET DECISION MAKING AUTHORITY.
BUT IN THE SENSE OF THE CITY COUNCIL IS APPOINTING YOU, THE CITY COUNCIL IS MAKING THE RULES, YOU'RE INTERPRETING.
I MEAN, IN THAT LINE, YOU ARE KIND OF RELATED TO THAT.
HOWEVER, TO ME, IN ALL OF THE HISTORY I'VE HAD WITH PLANNING AND ZONING, THE IDEA OF HAVING A BOARD REVIEW SOMETHING IS REALLY IMPORTANT WHEN THERE'S A LOT OF DISCRETION.
SO IN A VARIANCE, THERE'S A LOT OF DISCRETION BECAUSE YOU'RE HAVING TO LOOK AT THE COMPATIBILITY OF THINGS OR THE IMPACT OF THINGS THAT IS NOT JUST A YES OR NO, YOU KNOW, IT MEETS THIS CRITERIA.
SO WHEN YOU HAVE THAT KIND OF DISCRETION, IT'S BETTER TO HAVE FIVE EYES ON IT THAN ONE PERSON DOING IT.
AND SO THAT'S, THAT'S THE IMPORTANCE OF HAVING THESE BOARDS.
THE MORE DISCRETIONARY DECISION IS, THE BETTER IT IS TO HAVE A BOARD.
IF IT WAS A YES, NO QUESTION, WHY NOT JUST LET STAFF DO, DEAL WITH IT AND MOVE ON? UM, SO THAT'S KIND OF ONE OF THE THINGS OF THAT.
UM, AND THEN THE IMPORTANCE OF THIS
[00:25:01]
IS, YOU KNOW, AGAIN, THEN YOU, YOU, YOU'RE BEING FAIR.YOU'RE, YOU'RE NOT PUTTING IT IN ONE PERSON'S HANDS.
AND THAT ALL LEADS TO THIS DISCUSSION OF LIKE, DUE PROCESS AND UNBIASED DECISIONS.
SO THE WHOLE POINT BEHIND DUE PROCESS AND ALL THE NOTICE YOU HAVE AND ALL THE THINGS YOU DO IS TO MAKE SURE THAT DECISIONS IN THE CITY ARE FAIR AND, YOU KNOW, OPEN TO EVALUATION, OPEN TO DISCUSSION, UM, YOU KNOW, THE KIND OF STANDARDS THINGS WE HAVE, WHICH IS, YOU KNOW, SUFFICIENT NOTICE, WHICH YOU HAVE PRETTY STANDARD NOTIFICATION REQUIREMENTS THAT MOST COMMUNITIES USE.
YOU IF YOU'VE READ THE HANDBOOK, YOU AND, YOU KNOW, THE, THE STATE LAW, THERE'S, YOU KNOW, THE WHOLE CONFLICT OF INTEREST.
SO YOU'RE, HOW DO YOU BE UNBIASED HERE? IT HELPS, IT HELPS PREVENT ARBITRARY DECISIONS, BUT IT DOESN'T GUARANTEE THAT EVERYBODY'S GONNA BE HAPPY WALKING OUT OF THESE MEETINGS.
YOU KNOW, SO YOU COULD MAKE A DECISION FOR OR AGAINST THE APPLICANT THAT YOU KNOW, SOMEBODY EITHER THE APPLICANT'S GONNA LIKE OR HATE, OR MAYBE THE ADJACENT PROPERTY OWNERS ARE GONNA LOVE OR HATE.
BUT AS LONG AS YOU WERE DOING YOUR JOB BASED ON THE CRITERIA THERE, AND YOU WERE, YOU WERE OPEN AND OPEN TO HEARING EVERYBODY, THEN YOU'VE DONE YOUR JOB AND YOU'VE GIVEN EVERYBODY DUE PROCESS.
UNFORTUNATELY, WE JUST CAN'T MAKE EVERYBODY HAPPY AS MUCH AS WE TRY.
THIS IS ALL THE LIST OF THINGS WE'RE GONNA TALK ABOUT TONIGHT.
I DON'T HAVE A SLIDE FOR EVERYTHING, SO I PROMISE YOU IT WON'T BE THIS LONG.
BUT I WANTED TO TALK ABOUT THE CODE OF ETHICS, BOTH THAT YOU HAVE, THAT THE STATE HAS, THAT EVERYBODY HAS.
UM, BECAUSE I THINK THIS IS THE MOST CRITICAL PIECE.
THIS IS WHERE I'VE SEEN A LOT OF MEETINGS GO WRONG.
I'VE SEEN, UH, YOU RECENTLY SAT IN ON A, A SESSION ON, UNFORTUNATELY I WAS, I DIDN'T GET TO SEE IT ALL, BUT A SESSION ON, UM, VIRTUAL MEETINGS AND THE DO'S AND DON'T OF VIRTUAL MEETINGS AND HOW THAT HAS GONE AWRY WITH PEOPLE SAYING THINGS OFF MIC THAT WERE RECORDED AND, YOU KNOW, WE OBVIOUSLY HAVE THE CINCINNATI FIVE WITH OUR TEXTING AND ALL THAT KIND OF THING.
SO LOTS OF EXAMPLES OF BAD BEHAVIOR OUT THERE, BUT I ALWAYS GET ROPED INTO DOING ETHICS TRAINING FOR A ICP MEMBERS.
SO I'M A, I'M A MEMBER OF THE AMERICAN INSTITUTE CERTIFIED OR PLANNERS AARON IS AS WELL.
UM, WE HAVE A CODE OF ETHICS OURSELVES THAT WE HAVE TO DO TRAINING FOR EVERY TWO YEARS.
UM, BUT A LOT OF IT IS ABOUT US BEING, YOU KNOW, FAIR IN OUR OPERATIONS AND IT'S MORE THAN JUST, YOU KNOW, WE HAVE TO, I SOMETIMES I FEEL LIKE THAT TRAINING AND I, I HAVE TO DO IT SO I CAN KEEP MY CREDENTIALS.
BUT, UM, IT'S JUST BEING AWARE OF THE GRAY AREAS.
NOT EVERYTHING IS GREAT AND STRAIGHTFORWARD.
SO, UM, IT IS AN EXPECTATION AT FOR EVERYBODY, FOR YOU, FOR ANYBODY IN FRONT OF YOU TO BE ON THEIR, YOU KNOW, BEST BEHAVIOR.
AS MUCH AS WE WISH IT WAS A CLEAR SET OF RULES, IT'S NOT.
AND I WILL TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT SOME OF THE GRAY AREAS THAT YOU MAY HAVE TO WRESTLE WITH AS YOU GO THROUGH HERE.
AND THE BIGGEST THING I THINK IS THAT IT'S NOT NECESSARILY ABOUT YOUR MORALS OR YOUR KIND OF VALUES, ALTHOUGH, I MEAN, HOPEFULLY EVERYTHING ALIGNS.
I THINK MOST OF US WOULD ARGUE THAT IT ALIGNS, BUT THAT WE OBVIOUSLY HAVE SEEN THE NEWS OUT THERE AND I UNFORTUNATELY HAVE SEEN, YOU KNOW, UH, ELECTED OFFICIALS OR APPOINTED OFFICIALS BALK AT, UH, APPLICATIONS BECAUSE THEY WERE A DIFFERENT RELIGION OR A DIFFERENT DEGREE, YOU KNOW, AND BE VERY PUBLIC ABOUT THAT BECAUSE THEY WERE THINKING, OH, I'M ACTING IN THE BEST INTEREST OF THE COMMUNITY.
BUT OBVIOUSLY THAT IS THEIR MORALS AND THEY'RE NOT THAT THEY WERE ACTUALLY TRYING TO BE OPEN TO EVERYBODY'S VIEWS.
UM, SO UNFORTUNATELY THAT DOES HAPPEN A LOT.
BUT THAT'S THE CRITICAL PIECE ABOUT THIS ETHICS IS FOR EVERYBODY.
THAT'S THE NICE THING ABOUT THE HANDBOOK IS THAT THE HANDBOOK KIND OF OUTLINES THAT, HEY, NOT ONLY ARE WE KIND OF MAKING YOU SUBSCRIBE TO THE CODE OF ETHICS, BUT BE AWARE IT IS STATE LAW.
SO THE STATE LAW, THE ETHICS LAW, IF YOU REALLY WANNA HAVE SOME FUN, YOU CAN, YOU KNOW, IF WE HAVE A PROBLEM FALLING ASLEEP, THERE'S A LOT OF GREAT ADVISORY OPINIONS OUT THERE ON ALL THESE DIFFERENT SCENARIOS THAT HAPPEN AND GET DRAWN UP TO, TO THE ETHICS COMMISSION.
BUT, UM, THAT IS ONE THAT IS A BIG STICKLER.
SO IT IS PUNISHABLE BY FINES, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE CAN GO TO JAIL FOR IT.
UM, THIS PAST ELECTION CYCLE, I GOT A, A FLYER OF ALL THE UNETHICAL PEOPLE IN CLAREMONT COUNTY WHERE I LIVE,
UM, SO IT APPLIES TO THE BOARDS.
UM, THERE'S A HIGHER LEVEL I THINK THAT APPLIES TO ELECTED OFFICIALS WITH FINANCIAL DISCLOSURES AND ALL THAT STUFF, BUT IT ALSO APPLIES TO ANYBODY THAT COMES IN FRONT OF YOU.
[00:30:01]
SOMEBODY'S COMING TO YOU AND SAYING, HEY, LET ME TAKE YOU OUT TO A REALLY BIG LUNCH AND TALK TO YOU ABOUT THIS APPLICATION, I HAVE, NOT ONLY ARE YOU IN TROUBLE, BUT THE PERSON, WE WON'T CALL IT BRIBING, BRIBING YOU, UH, IS, IS GONNA ALSO BE IN TROUBLE FOR, UM, SOME COMMUNITIES HAVE LOCAL ETHICS RULES YOU DO IN YOUR HANDBOOK, HAVE A CODE OF ETHICS, AND THEY'RE VERY CLEAR THAT, YOU KNOW, YOU CAN BE REMOVED AND ALL THAT STUFF.IT VERY MUCH ALIGNS WITH STATE LAW.
SO IT'S KIND OF ONE IN THE SAME.
BUT AGAIN, I THINK THAT'S THE BENEFIT OF HAVING THOSE KIND OF CLARIFIED FOR YOU WHEN YOU SIT DOWN IN THAT CHAIR.
BUT THEN A LOT OF PROFESSIONALS WHO EITHER WORK WITH YOU OR COME IN FRONT OF YOU FOR APPLICATIONS LIKE ENGINEERS AND ARCHITECTS AND STUFF LIKE THAT, HAVE THEIR OWN PROFESSIONAL CODE OF ETHICS.
SO IF I WAS HERE REPRESENTING SOMEBODY IN FRONT OF YOU, I'M NOT ONLY SUBJECT TO THE STATE ETHICS LAWS, I'M SUBJECT IT TO MY PROFESSIONAL CODE OF ETHICS, UM, WHICH ARE, AGAIN, VERY MUCH ALIGNED WITH ONE ANOTHER.
UM, I DON'T, YOU KNOW, THIS MAY BE TRAINING DOWN THE LINE FOR EVERYBODY, BUT THEY DO, THE STATE DOES TRAINING AND THERE'S A LOT MORE INFORMATION ON THE MOST COMMON ISSUES THERE.
UM, I THINK CONFLICTS OF INTEREST IS THE MOST PROMINENT ONE WITH BOARDS.
SO THE, THE BIGGEST THING WITH CONFLICTS OF INTEREST, AND AGAIN, THIS IS KIND OF REEMPHASIZED IN YOUR, YOUR HANDBOOK, IS, YOU KNOW, YOU REALLY SHOULD, THIS IS WHERE IT GET, THERE'S CLEAR AND THERE'S UNCLEAR.
SO OBVIOUSLY IF YOU'VE GOT A FINANCIAL INTEREST IN AN APPLICATION OR A BUSINESS OR YOUR SPOUSE, THAT'S VERY CLEAR CUT.
UM, IF YOU HAVE A INTEREST IN THE PROPERTY ADJACENT, YOU KNOW THAT YOU'RE GETTING THE NOTICE LIKE EVERYBODY ELSE.
I WILL TELL YOU WHERE I WAS IN THE AUDIENCE, I WAS NOT PART OF ANY DECISION.
I WAS WAITING FOR MY AGENDA ITEM AND I WAS JUST LIKE, WHAT IS GOING ON? UH, HAD A, WAS IN FRONT OF A PLANNING COMMISSION.
I WAS WATCHING THEM DO THEIR THING AND THEY, UM, THEY HAD A SITE PLAN IN FRONT OF THEM FOR, I THINK IT WAS A RECREATIONAL THING.
AND THE CHAIR GOES, WELL, I KNOW THIS WENT IN FRONT OF THE BOARD OF ZONING APPEALS AND THEY GOT A VARIANCE FOR A SETBACK, BUT I DON'T AGREE WITH WHAT THE BOARD OF ZONING APPEALS SAID, AND I DON'T THINK WE SHOULD PROVE THE ZONING, THE SITE PLAN BECAUSE OF IT.
AND THEN STATED, BECAUSE HE WAS A NEIGHBOR.
AND I JUST WAS LIKE, WELL, OKAY, THAT'S A, THAT'S A LITTLE BIT OF A CONFLICT.
YOU REALLY SHOULDN'T BE EVEN, YOU KNOW, UP THERE ON THE DIOCESE.
AND, UH, BUT I WASN'T, I WAS, AGAIN, I WAS THERE FOR ANOTHER AGENDA ITEM, SO I JUST WAITED UNTIL THE NEXT DAY WHEN I TALKED TO STAFF AND THEY'RE LIKE, YEAH, HE WAS IMMEDIATELY WITHDRAWN OR PULLED FROM THAT BOARD.
UM, I DON'T KNOW IF THEY TOOK IT FURTHER.
THEY DID GO BACK AND, AND RE YOU KNOW, REHEAR THAT WITHOUT HIM ON THAT.
UM, BUT CLEARLY, YOU KNOW, THAT WAS A VERY ABUNDANT CONFLICT OF INTEREST.
UM, AGAIN, EVERY, YOU KNOW, THE STATE GOES INTO, YOU KNOW, IF YOU'VE GOT DIRECT FAMILY OR YOUR KIDS, YOUR PARENTS OR SOMETHING OF THAT KIND OF RELATIONSHIP, THE HANDBOOK TAKES A FURTHER AND TALKS ABOUT FRIENDS.
BUT FRIENDS IS ALWAYS WHERE IT STARTS TO GET A LITTLE GRAY, BECAUSE I'M SURE YOU'VE GOT VERY CLOSE FRIENDS, BUT YOU ALSO PROBABLY HAVE FRIENDS THAT YOU WOULD CALL MAYBE MORE ACQUAINTANCES.
LIKE, YEAH, I KNOW THEM, I'VE KNOWN THEM FOR A VERY LONG TIME, BUT WE DON'T INTERACT ON A DAILY BASIS.
SO YOUR HANDBOOK, NOR DOES THE, THE STATE GET INTO GREAT DEFINITION OF AT WHAT POINT DOES THIS BECOME PROBLEMATIC VERSUS YOU'RE IN THE CLEAR.
UM, AND SO THAT GETS INTO THE KIND OF LIKE, WHERE, WHERE IS THAT LINE THAT THERE'S A VERY CLEAR CONFLICT AND THAT IT'S JUST, I KNOW SOMEBODY, BUT I CAN BE, YOU KNOW, UNBIASED ABOUT, CAN I ASK A QUESTION? PLEASE? UM, IN THAT SITUATION THAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT, AND SAY FOR INSTANCE, IF YOU KNOW SOMEONE THAT'S COMING BEFORE YOU AND ALL OF THAT GOOD STUFF, UM, WOULDN'T THAT BOARD MEMBER WOULD, WHAT SHOULD I WOULD THINK SAY, I NEED TO BE REMOVED FROM THIS CONVERSATION BECAUSE I KNOW THIS PERSON OR SOMETHING OF THAT SORT.
SO, AND THIS IS WHERE YOUR HANDBOOK SAYS WHAT I WOULD TELL YOU TO DO.
WHICH IS DISCLOSE, DISCLOSE, DISCLOSE.
I THINK I STATE THIS IN THIS PRESENTATION LIKE FIVE TIMES.
IT'S ALWAYS BEST TO JUST PUT IT OUT THERE.
SO A LOT OF TIMES, WELL, LIKE YOUR HANDBOOK SAYS YES, DISCLOSE IT AND EXPLAIN I SHOULD REMOVE MYSELF.
NOW THERE'S ALSO, AGAIN, THERE'S KNOWING PEOPLE LIKE YOUR BEST FRIEND VERSUS LIKE, I KNOW SOMEBODY THEY, YOU KNOW, I'VE, YOU KNOW, INTERACTED WITH THEM OVER THE COURSE OF, YOU KNOW, MY LIFE HERE.
BUT YOU KNOW, YOU DON'T NECESSARILY FEEL LIKE THERE'S ANY CONFLICT THAT YOU WOULD BE ACTING MM-HMM.
SO, YOU KNOW, IF YOU HAVE A QUESTION, ONE, IF THERE'S MORE THAN ENOUGH DECISION MAKERS ON THE BOARD, MAYBE IT'S BETTER THAT YOU RECUSE YOURSELF.
[00:35:01]
TALKING TO STAFF AND TALKING TO THE LAW DIRECTOR IS CRITICAL BEFORE THAT.BUT THEN AGAIN, YOU CAN ALSO BRING IT UP AND SAY, LISTEN, EITHER I KNOW THIS PERSON AND I FEEL LIKE EVEN THOUGH I MIGHT BE ABLE TO BE UNBIASED, IT MIGHT LOOK BAD.
SO I WOULD RATHER RECUSE MYSELF AND STEP AWAY.
OR YOU COULD SAY, YOU KNOW, I DO KNOW THIS PERSON, BUT IT'S NOT VERY WELL, I FEEL LIKE I, YOU KNOW, AND YOU CAN EXPLAIN IT.
AND THE BOARD A LOT OF TIMES WILL HAVE A DISCUSSION ABOUT, YOU KNOW, HOW, HOW YOU FEEL ABOUT IT.
SO, BUT IT'S ALWAYS, I ALWAYS STATE IT'S BETTER TO BE MORE CONSERVATIVE ON IT BECAUSE SOMETIMES JUST THE PERCEPTION OF A CONFLICT IS, YEAH.
MY PHILOSOPHY IS EVEN IF I KNOW, KNOW OF YOU, I'M REMOVING MYSELF.
'CAUSE I DO THE SAME EFFORTS WITH, UH, WITH THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.
OH, YOU GOING TO JAIL? YOU KNOW, OR DOING THAT, THAT'S JUST ME.
YOU KNOW, I'M CURIOUS IF I KNOW THAT THEY CAN RECUSE THEMSELVES WHILE THE, AND THE DATES.
BUT WE ALSO COMMUNICATE WITH THESE FOLKS EMAIL, OBVIOUSLY.
CAN THEY, ONCE THEY REVIEW PACKET, IS IT OKAY FOR THEM TO RECUSE THEMSELVES VIA EMAIL? OR DO THEY NEED TO DO IT IN THE MAY SETTING? I WOULD NOT RECUSE VIA EMAIL.
UM, JUST BECAUSE AGAIN, IT GETS INTO DISCUSSIONS OF DIS NOT NECESSARILY THAT YOU'RE MAKING A DECISION, BUT DECISIONS MADE BY EMAIL.
I THINK IT WOULD BE BETTER TO LET THE LAW DIRECTOR KNOW IN PARTICULAR, BECAUSE THEY'RE GONNA BE RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY DEFENSE OF ANY ACCUSATIONS.
AND THEN I DO THINK IT'S CRITICAL FOR MOST PART, YOU ALL, YOU, I'M GONNA ASSUME THAT YOU HAVE MORE THAN ONE THING ON YOUR AGENDA ITEM.
SO YOU MIGHT ONLY BE ACCUSING YOU, YOU SUFFER ONCE.
AND THE WAY YOUR HANDBOOK READS IS THEY ARE TO ANNOUNCE THAT THEY HAVE A CONFLICT OF INTEREST.
YOU DON'T HAVE TO GO INTO GREAT DETAIL ABOUT IT.
IF IT'S VERY CLEAR, YOU CAN JUST BE LIKE, I HAVE A CONFLICT OF INTEREST.
I NEED TO RECUSE MYSELF FROM THIS AND THEN REMOVE THEMSELVES FROM THE DAIS.
SO, YOU KNOW, NOW IF IT WAS THE ONLY AGENDA ITEM, YOU KNOW, IT MIGHT BE THAT THE LAW DIRECTOR STAFF SAYS, LISTEN, THEN YOU DON'T NEED TO COME.
AND THEY WILL ENTER IT INTO THE RECORD A BIT.
YOU'LL WANNA BE AS TOTALLY OPEN.
THE MORE OPEN YOU ARE ABOUT WHAT'S GOING ON, THE BETTER.
BUT AGAIN, IF THAT WAS THE ONLY AGENDA ITEM, I BELIEVE THAT THE LAW DIRECTOR COULD SAY, YOU KNOW, YOU, YOU, YOU AREN'T HERE TONIGHT BECAUSE YOU MADE US AWARE OF A CONFLICT OF INTEREST.
AND YOU KNOW, IT'S IN MY MIND TOO, YOUR HANDBOOK.
SO RECUSE YOURSELF, LEAVE THE DAIS.
DON'T, DON'T PARTICIPATE UNLESS YOU WANNA, YOU CAN PARTICIPATE PART AS THE GENERAL PUBLIC, THEN YOU COME OUT HERE AND DO IT.
BUT EVEN THAT CAN LOOK SKETCHY.
SO THERE ARE COMMUNITIES THAT THEIR RULE OF THUMB IS GO IN THE OTHER ROOM OR, YOU KNOW, GET OUT OF LINE OF SIGHT BECAUSE I CAN, I CAN COMMUNICATE WITH A LOT OF
UM, AND SO, BUT THAT'S ALWAYS, THAT'S THAT GRAY AREA THAT SOME PEOPLE, YOU KNOW, YOU DO HAVE THE RIGHT TO COME AND SAY, YOU KNOW, I AM SPEAKING TO YOU AS YOU KNOW, JOE PUBLIC, BUT YEAH.
SO I, IF YOU'RE HERE, DO IT PUBLICLY.
IF IT'S THE ONLY AGENDA ITEM, YOU COULD PROBABLY FIND A WAY TO HAVE THAT ENTERED IN.
BUT IT NEEDS TO BE STATED WHY YOU'RE NOT HERE, YOU'RE HERE TO DISAPPEAR.
SO, SO AS I UNDER, I JUST WANT TO KIND OF GET THAT DOWN TO A BULLET POINT.
I CAN DISCLOSE, I CAN DISCLOSE BY EMAIL.
IN GENERAL, I GENERALLY THINK IT'S NOT A GOOD IDEA TO DO MUCH OF ANYTHING BEYOND STAFF TRANSMITTING YOU INFORMATION VIA EMAIL.
'CAUSE EVERY TIME THERE'S AN EMAIL EXCHANGE, IT'S PUBLIC RECORD.
AND I FEEL THAT PUBLIC RECORD IS BEST DONE IN PERSON, YOU KNOW, ON A RECORDED RECORD INSTEAD OF HAVING TO TRACK ALL THE PAPER TRAILS.
SO IF YOU KNOW YOU'RE GONNA HAVE A CONFLICT, I THINK YOU CAN LET THE LAW DIRECTOR KNOW IN AHEAD BY A PHONE CALL.
BUT I THINK PER THE BEST WAY IS TO COME AND ACTUALLY SAY IT ON THE RECORD AT THE PUBLIC MEETING.
SO, BECAUSE THAT WAY EVERYBODY THAT IS A PARTY OF INTEREST THAT'S SITTING OUT HERE HEARS THAT YOU ARE ACCUSING YOURSELF.
THEY DON'T SEE THAT IN AN EMAIL.
IF YOU'RE HERE, THEN DISAPPEAR
UM, SO THE OTHER THING THAT I DON'T THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE THINK ABOUT, AND WE, I I AM SURE WE'RE ALL ABOVE HOLDING GRUDGES OR YOU KNOW, REALLY NOT LIKING SOMEBODY.
IF, IF YOU REALLY, YOU KNOW, OR MAYBE YOU DON'T HAVE THE PROBLEM, BUT YOU KNOW, YOUR NEIGHBOR REALLY DOESN'T LIKE THAT, OR SOMEBODY ACROSS THE WOOD JUST REALLY DOESN'T LIKE YOU FOR WHATEVER REASON, THAT ITSELF CAN CREATE A CONFLICT JUST BECAUSE THERE'S AGAIN,
[00:40:01]
A PERCEPTION THAT YOU MIGHT BE ACTING OUT AGAINST THEM OR VICE VERSA.SO IF YOU ARE COMING IN WITH ANY KIND OF PRECONCEIVED NOTION OF A DECISION BECAUSE OF THAT PERSON OR THEIR BELIEFS OR WHATEVER IT MAY BE, THAT ITSELF IS A CONFLICT OF INTEREST THAT YOU NEED TO KIND OF BE AWARE OF.
AND AGAIN, YOU DON'T HAVE TO TELL THE WHOLE STORY,
YOU CAN JUST SAY, YOU KNOW, I FEEL LIKE I'VE GOT A CONFLICT IN BEING A, A KIND OF AN UNBIASED DECISION MAKER IN THIS AND RECUSE YOURSELF.
BUT, UM, I JUST WANNA BE CLEAR THAT AGAIN, THERE'S FEELINGS THAT ARE INVOLVED THAT CAN CREATE A CONFLICT.
SO THEN ONE IMPORTANT THING HERE IS, YOU KNOW, GENERALLY, AND THIS, UH, REALLY APPLIES MORE TO PLANNING COMMISSION THAN A BOARD OF ZONING APPEAL.
'CAUSE YOU ARE VERY CASE BY CASE.
BUT GENERALLY WHEN A BOARD IS MAKING A DECISION THAT IS KIND OF ACROSS, YOU KNOW, FOR THE ENTIRE CITY.
SO IF YOU WERE TO INITIATE A ZONING AMENDMENT THAT IS TO CHANGE SOMETHING IN THE ZONING CODE, YOU'RE ACTING ON BEHALF OF EVERYBODY AND NOT ONE INDIVIDUAL, UM, THAT WOULD BE SPECIFICALLY BENEFICIAL TO YOU.
THAT IS NOT A CONFLICT OF INTEREST.
SO WHENEVER THE PLANNING COMMISSION MAKES RECOMMENDATIONS ON ZONING MAP AMENDMENTS FOR THE ENTIRE CITY, OR ZONING TEXT AMENDMENTS, WHERE THE BENEFIT IS FOR ALL OF THE PUBLIC, THAT'S NOT A CONFLICT OF INTEREST.
AND THAT'S ACTUALLY, THIS LANGUAGE IS ALMOST VERY SPECIFICALLY OFF THE STATE'S, UH, CODE.
SO AGAIN, WE'VE ALREADY KIND OF JUMPED AHEAD FOR THIS, IS WHAT DO YOU DO? UM, AGAIN, FOLLOW YOUR HANDBOOK.
'CAUSE THAT'S WHAT THE CITY'S EXPECTATION OF YOU.
UM, THEY DO SAY YOU CAN ADDRESS THE PUBLIC.
THAT IS ENTIRELY UP TO, IT'S UP TO YOU.
BUT IT DOES SAY NEVER REPRESENT AN APPLICATION UNTIL, SO NEVER BE THE PERSON, SAY, COMING UP HERE AND ACTING ON BEHALF OF AN APPLICANT.
IF I WAS SITTING ON MY BOARD, THEY WOULD NOT WANT ME AS A PROFESSIONAL PLANNER COMING UP AND REPRESENTING ONE OF MY VERY FEW PRIVATE CLIENTS I HAVE, UM, IN FRONT OF 'EM.
AND THAT MAKES A VERY CLEAR SENSE.
THAT'S WHERE YOU, YOU HAVE BUDDIES COME UP AND DO IT.
SO SOME OTHER ETHICAL CONSIDERATIONS, UH, YOU KNOW, A LOT OF YOU HAVE SOME BACKGROUND IN REAL ESTATE OR THINGS THAT MIGHT, YOU KNOW, BRING YOU IN FRONT OF A BOARD OF ZONING APPEALS AT SOME POINT IN THE FUTURE.
YOU SHOULD NEVER REPRESENT A CLIENT OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT IN FRONT OF THIS BZA FOR ANY KIND OF CAPACITY.
UM, AND I DON'T, I DON'T KNOW WHY SPRING BRO'S ON THERE.
I'VE NEVER DONE TRAINING AT SPRING, BRO.
I MUST HAVE BEEN THINKING SPRING BRO.
HE WRITES, UM, BUT YOU KNOW, IN FRONT OF YOUR CURRENT BOARD FOR 12 MONTHS AFTER YOU'VE LEFT THE BOARD, UM, THIS DOES NOT INCLUDE IF YOU'RE HERE ON BEHALF OF HUBER HEIGHTS.
YOU CAN'T, OBVIOUSLY NOT THAT YOU GET A LOT OF CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION AS THE BOARD OF ZONING APPEALS, BUT IF YOU DO GET ANY KIND OF CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION ABOUT A COURT CASE OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT THAT'S GOING ON, YOU CANNOT BE TELLING PEOPLE ABOUT THAT.
SO THIS LANGUAGE HERE OF DON'T SOLICIT OR ACCEPT ANYTHING OF VALUE THAT IS OF SUCH A CHARACTER IS MANIFEST A SUBSTANTIAL AND IMPROPER INFLUENCE ON YOUR DECISIONS IS, IS DUMBED DOWN TO DON'T ACCEPT GIFTS OR COFFEE OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT WHERE SOMEBODY IS GOING TO BE WANTING TO DISCUSS SOMETHING THAT'S IN FRONT OF YOU.
NOW IF 10 MONTHS DOWN THE WAY YOU'VE YOUR ACCUSED YOURSELF AND YOUR FRIENDS THERE AND YOU'RE JUST LIKE, HEY, LET'S HAVE A COFFEE.
AND YOU'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT BOARD OF ZONING, THAT'S FINE.
THAT'S, THAT'S ENTIRELY DIFFERENT.
BUT THIS THING WITH GIFTS IS A NO-NO IN THE STATE.
IT'S A NO-NO IN YOUR, YOUR HANDBOOK.
AND AGAIN, YOU KNOW, THIS, THIS KIND OF GETS INTO THAT PERCEPTION OR REALITY OF A CONFLICT PERCEPTION BECOMES REALITY.
REAL QUICK, REAL QUICK, REAL QUICK.
WHY IS THE STAFF TOO? HUH? WHY IS THE STAFF TOO? YEAH.
WELL, WELL, AND ESPECIALLY IN OUR POLITICAL CLIENT NOW, OUR CLIMATE RIGHT NOW, I THINK IT'S EVEN WORSE THERE.
IT'S VERY QUICK TO BE LIKE, YEAH, NO, YOU'VE GOT A PROBLEM AND YOU REALLY, WHY ARE YOU, YOU KNOW, DOING THIS? AND WHY ARE YOU PART OF THIS DECISION MAKING? DON'T YOU HAVE A CONFLICT? BUT ALL OF THAT WHOLE CONVERSATION ABOUT CONFLICTS REALLY JUST LEADS TO, YOU KNOW, PART OF YOUR MAJOR ROLE IS YOU SHOULD BE COMING INTO THESE, UH, HEARINGS.
YOU SHOULDN'T COME IN PREEMPTIVELY KNOWING, I DON'T LIKE THIS, I'M GONNA TURN IT DOWN.
YOU NEED TO LISTEN TO EVERYBODY THAT HAS SOMETHING TO SAY.
UM, WE ALREADY TALKED ABOUT THIS.
YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU KIND OF START YOUR BUSINESS FOR THE PUBLIC HEARING, YOU WOULD DISCLOSE IF YOU'VE GOT A CONFLICT TO REMOVE YOURSELF.
AND THIS IS AGAIN, DISCLOSE, DISCLOSE, DISCLOSE.
BUT BACK TO THIS QUESTION ABOUT EMAILING DIS YOU KNOW, RECUSING YOURSELF OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT.
EVERY PARTY THAT HAS AN INTEREST, WHETHER IT'S APPLICANT OR IT'S THE NEIGHBORS WHO ARE BEING NOTICED OR THE REST OF YOUR BOARD MEMBERS, THEY HAVE TO HAVE FULL ACCESS TO ALL INFORMATION AND EMAILS WHILE THEY ARE PUBLIC RECORDS AND COULD BE REQUESTED.
[00:45:01]
YOU KNOW, THEY WOULD BE SUBJECT TO THINGS.IT'S NOT WHAT THEY'RE GONNA GO FOR IN ADVANCE OF A MEETING.
THEY WANT LIKE TO KNOW WHAT'S GOING ON AT THE MEETING.
UM, THE OTHER BIG THING, AND AGAIN, THIS IS REALLY GOOD WHERE I WAS REALLY HAPPY TO SEE ALL OF THIS IN THE, UH, HANDBOOK, UM, BUT IS WHAT WE CALL EX PARTE COMMUNICATION.
SO IT'S TALKING, TALKING ABOUT TALKING SHOP OUTSIDE OF THE, THE BOARD MEETINGS.
YOU KNOW, DON'T DISCUSS AMONGST YOURSELF, DON'T DISCUSS IT WITH OTHER PEOPLE.
UM, IF YOU'VE GOT A SPECIFIC QUESTION FOR STAFF OR SOMETHING, THAT'S FINE.
YOU CAN ASK STAFF FOR MORE INFORMATION OR YOU KNOW, WHAT PART OF THE CODE IS THIS IN? I DON'T KNOW WHERE THIS IS, BUT YOU KNOW, YOU ARE ESSENTIALLY, YOU ARE VERY MUCH THE JUDGE AND THE COURT ON BEHALF OF THE, THE CITY HERE.
UM, AND YOU ARE THE ONES THAT SHOULD BE DEBATING EVERYTHING AND EVERYTHING THAT THE APPLICANT IS FILING WITH YOU, YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO HEAR IN A PUBLIC SETTING AND EVERYTHING THAT THE, WHETHER OPPONENTS OR PEOPLE THAT ARE IN SUPPORT OF IT COME UP.
ALL OF THAT IS SUPPOSED TO BE ON THE RECORD.
UM, AND A LOT OF TIMES PRIVATE DISCUSSIONS ARE OBVIOUSLY NOT WELL, THEY GET CAUGHT BEING ON THE RECORD 'CAUSE SOMEBODY TEXTED SOMEBODY OR SOMEBODY EMAILED SOMEBODY.
BUT ALL OF THE CASE THINGS SHOULD REALLY BE DISCUSSED AT THE MEETING OR THE PUBLIC HEARING.
AND IT'S VERY EASY IF SOMEBODY WANTS TO COME UP AND START TALKING TO YOU ABOUT IT, GOING, YOU KNOW, TIME OUT.
I APPRECIATE YOUR INTEREST, BUT YOU NEED TO COME TO THE MEETING.
AND JUST KIND OF LEAVE IT AT THAT.
UM, AND THIS IS ANOTHER KIND OF DISCLOSED DISCUSS.
LET'S SAY SOMEBODY DID APPROACH YOU AND SOMEBODY SAW, YOU KNOW, SOMEBODY SAW YOU AT THE COFFEE SHOP AND THEY JUST CAME UP AND THEY STARTED TALKING TO YOU AND YOU PUT A KIBOSH ON IT.
I PERSONALLY THINK THAT YOU KIND OF SAY, HEY LISTEN, I WAS APPROACHED BY SO AND SO THEY WANTED TO TALK ABOUT IT, BUT I SAID, NO, COME TO THE MEETING.
BUT I JUST WANT EVERYBODY TO KNOW THAT I, YOU KNOW, KIND OF SHUT THAT DOWN BECAUSE THE LAST THING YOU NEED IS FOR ANOTHER BOARD MEMBER SEEING YOU TALKING TO SOMEBODY AND NOT KNOWING WHAT THE DISCUSSION WAS.
UM, BUT ALL OF THAT SHOULD BE DONE AT THE MEETING.
UM, YOU KNOW, HAVING BEEN IN A COMMUNITY OF SIMILAR SIZE AND BEING ON A BOARD, YOU ALL KNOW A LOT OF PEOPLE.
YOU KNOW, AND YOU PROBABLY KNOW A NUMBER OF PEOPLE THAT COME IN FRONT OF YOU.
AND IT'S VERY NATURAL TO JUST WANNA BE LIKE, HEY, I'M COMING IN FRONT OF YOU NEXT MONTH.
AND, YOU KNOW, TO JUST KIND OF GO DOWN THAT RABBIT HOLE.
SO THIS IS WHERE YOU NEED TO KIND OF DRAW A LINE AND SAY, I CAN'T, I CAN'T TALK ABOUT THIS HERE.
I GOTTA, I GOTTA HAVE YOU COME TO THE MEETING IF YOU WANNA, UM, TALK ABOUT THIS.
SO I, I'M GONNA BRING UP A SPECIFIC SITUATION AND, AND HELP ME WITH THIS.
SO WE SHOULDN'T TALK OUTSIDE THE MEETING ABOUT THE BUSINESS OF THE BOARD.
OUR ELECTIONS OF THE BOARD MEMBERS TO THE CHAIR AND VICE CHAIR POSITION CONSIDERED UNDER THOSE SAME RULES.
BECAUSE YOU HAVE PUBLIC MEETINGS LIKE TODAY WHERE THERE'S NO ACTION BEING TAKEN, RIGHT? NO PUBLIC HEARINGS, IT'S A PUBLIC MEETING.
ALL OF YOUR MEETINGS TO DISCUSS ANY TYPE OF BUSINESS, WHETHER IT'S A FORMAL APPLICATION OR TRAINING OR JUST TO ADOPT MINUTES IS A PUBLIC MEETING.
ALL PUBLIC HEARINGS TAKE PLACE AT A PUBLIC MEETING.
BUT ANYTIME YOU GET TOGETHER AS A PUBLIC MEETING, NOT NECESS A PUBLIC HEARING.
SO ANY OF THAT IS STUFF THAT SHOULD BE DISCUSSED IN THE OPEN.
AND YOUR HANDBOOK, AGAIN, I'M GOING TO KUDOS TO IT.
I WAS REALLY IMPRESSED, IS VERY CLEAR.
UM, WHEN WE TALK ABOUT COMMUNICATIONS OUTSIDE, WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT ONE-ON-ONE EMAILS.
IT'S WRITTEN CORRESPONDENCE, OLD SCHOOL
NOW SOMEBODY COULD SUBMIT SOMETHING TO LIKE STAFF OR TO THE, YOU KNOW, TO BE SUBMITTED TO THE BOARD.
THAT'S FINE, BUT IT'S NOT YOU AS THE BOARD MEMBERS WRITING BACK AND RESPONDING TELEPHONE.
AND I PUT A LITTLE STAR BY THIS BECAUSE MAYBE YOU WANNA UPDATE THIS IS, I THINK THAT'S IMPLIED TO ALSO INCLUDE TEXT.
'CAUSE THAT'S WHERE CINCINNATI GOT IN TROUBLE BIG TIME.
UM, BUT IT DOES JUST SAY TELE, IT DOES JUST SAY TELEPHONE, BUT DON'T TEXT PEOPLE EITHER.
YOU KNOW, I WOULD THINK ANYTHING LIKE, YOU KNOW, EVEN LIKE, YOU KNOW, FACIAL THINGS, LIKE HEY, YOU KNOW, THAT KIND OF THING.
AND THEN THE OTHER THING IS, IS COMMUNICATION THROUGH SOME KIND OF INTERMEDIARY.
SO DON'T TRY TO BE CUTE AND PEOPLE HAVE DONE THIS.
DON'T TRY TO BE CUTE AND GET, YOU KNOW, HEY, UH, HEY AARON, CAN YOU, CAN YOU GO TALK TO THEM
[00:50:01]
AND THAT? ALL THAT KIND OF THING IS JUST SKIRTING AROUND WHAT SHOULD BE DISCUSSED UP ON THE DIOCESE.IT'S LIKE PASSING NOTES IN SCIENCE CLASS.
DON'T PASS NOTES IN SCIENCE CLASS.
WELL, AND HERE'S THE REASON WHY, AND I DON'T KNOW WHY THERE WAS AN ABUNDANCE OF THIS HAPPENING RIGHT AROUND THE TIME THAT CINCINNATI FIVE AND THAT WHOLE TEXTING SCANDAL WENT OUT.
BUT THERE WERE SO MANY, ESPECIALLY ELECTED OFFICIALS THAT GOT CAUGHT DOING ALL KINDS OF THINGS BY EMAIL AND STUFF LIKE THAT.
AND IT JUST LOOKS BAD ON THE CITY.
AND IT'S REALLY HARD TO COME BACK TO THAT, THAT LIKE, YOU KNOW, EVEN THOUGH WE'RE JUST DISCUSSING WHO SHOULD BE THE CHAIR AND THE VICE CHAIR SEEMS PRETTY HARMLESS, RIGHT? BUT YOU KNOW, SOMEBODY COULD LOOK AT THAT AND GO, WELL THAT'S ALL ABOUT POWER PLAY.
YOU KNOW, WHO'S GONNA BE IN CHARGE OF, YOU KNOW, RUNNING THESE MEETINGS AND STUFF LIKE THAT.
NOW IF SOMEBODY CALL YOU OUT ON THAT, PROBABLY NOT.
BUT IT'S AGAIN, ALWAYS BETTER TO BE SAFE THAN SORRY.
BUT YEAH, ANYTIME ANY DISCUSSION ABOUT BUSINESS RELATED TO THE BOARD SHOULD BE AT THE PUBLIC MEETINGS.
NOW I HAVE A QUESTION, PLEASE.
NORMALLY WHEN WE GET CASES, BECAUSE WE CAN'T REALLY GET A REAL REALITY CHECK ON, SAY WHERE THEY GOT A LOCATION AT AND WE GO OUT TO THE AREA TO SEE IT.
WE'VE MADE CONTACT WITH THE OWNER TO SAY WE WANT TO COME OUT AND SEE IT.
DO YOU RECOMMEND IF WE DO THAT TAKING MORE THAN ONE PERSON WITH US OR GOING AS A COM A COMPLETE BOARD TO SAY AT THIS TIME WE GOING OUT THERE TO CHECK.
SO HOW WOULD YOU, WHAT WOULD YOU RECOMMEND ON THAT? I SKIP TO THE NEXT SLIDE.
I'LL COME BACK TO THE NOTICE ONE.
SO WHEN WE TALK ABOUT OPPORTUNITIES TO BE HEARD, IT'S ALL PARTIES OF INTEREST.
AND I USE THAT LANGUAGE PARTIES OF INTEREST VERY SPECIFICALLY WITH THE BOARD OF ZONING APPEALS BECAUSE THERE IS CASE LAW AND EVERYTHING ABOUT THAT, THAT, YOU KNOW, YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU ARE HEARING SOMEBODY AND YOU ASK THEM TO GIVE 'EM THEIR ADDRESS, THERE'S A REASON WHY MM-HMM.
SO YOU OUGHT TO MAKE SURE THAT EVERYBODY WHO'S CONSIDERED A PARTY OF INTEREST THAT REALLY HAS SOME KIND OF RELATIONSHIP TO YOUR APPLICATION HAS THE OPPORTUNITY TO BE HEARD, BUT ALSO TO PARTICIPATE IN THE PROCESS.
AND SO ALL YOUR PUBLIC HEARINGS, ALL YOUR PUBLIC MEETINGS ARE OPEN TO THE PUBLIC.
THERE'S THE SITE VISITS AND THEN THERE'S ALSO THE QUESTION OF LIKE, WHAT HAPPENS IF THERE'S SOMETHING REALLY CONTENTIOUS? AND I'M ASSUMING THAT YOU PROBABLY WORK WITH STAFF TO FIND A OFFSITE THING IF YOU KNOW THAT YOU'RE REALLY GONNA GO ABOVE CAPACITY OR, OR DO SOMETHING TO GIVE EVERYBODY AN OPPORTUNITY TO HEARD.
SO WHEN IT COMES TO SITE VISITS, HERE'S THE TRICKY PART.
YOUR, YOUR HANDBOOK SAYS YOU CAN DO IT.
AND IN LEGALITY WISE, YOU CAN, IF YOU GO AS A GROUP, IT'S GOTTA BE A PUBLIC MEETING, WHICH MEANS YOU HAVE TO OFFER THE, THE ABILITY FOR ALL PARTIES, IMAGES TO GO.
AND THERE ARE COMMUNITIES THAT DO IT.
THERE ARE COMMUNITIES THAT WILL GET A BUS AND SAY, WE'RE ALL GOING OUT TO THE, YOU KNOW, AND THE APPLICANT WILL PRESENT SOMETHING AT THAT SITE.
IT'S VERY RARE 'CAUSE IT'S COSTLY.
BUT ALSO, YOU KNOW, IF YOU GO OUT AND TRY TO BE CUTE AND DO TWO, TWO AND ONE OR TWO, YOU KNOW, THAT KIND OF THING WHERE YOU'RE UNDER THE, THE QUORUM AND YOU'RE JUST AVOIDING THE PUBLIC MEETING, THAT'S STILL GONNA BE PROBLEMATIC.
SO WHAT I TYPICALLY, YOU KNOW, THE, THE HANDBOOK BASICALLY SAYS IF YOU DO IT, YOU KNOW, YOU'VE GOTTA DO IT THIS WAY TO MAKE IT A PUBLIC MEETING.
AND EVERYBODY'S GIVEN THE OPPORTUNITY OF NOTIFYING THE, THE LOCATION, YOU KNOW, JUST LIKE YOU WOULD ANY PUBLIC MEETING.
WHAT I TYPICALLY SAY IS THE EASIEST THING TO DO IS IF YOU WANNA TAKE A LOOK AT THE SITE OR SEE SOMETHING THAT YOU INDIVIDUALLY MAKE THAT EFFORT, NOT IN ANY COORDINATION EFFORT, YOU GO OUT AND DRIVE BY IT OR TAKE A LOOK AT IT YOURSELF, WHERE IT'S NOT, THERE'S NO DISCUSSION.
YOU KNOW, YOU'RE JUST KIND OF GETTING AN ORIENTATION FEEL FOR IT.
YEAH, NO, NO, THAT'S, THAT'S WHAT I WANT.
YOU GOTTA, I THINK WE HAVE RUN INTO A SITUATION WHERE, WHERE THE ISSUE WAS, WAS BEHIND A FENCE.
WELL, DIDN'T WE HAVE SOMETHING SIMILAR TO SOMETHING LIKE THAT? I REMEMBER, I WAS, I WAS GONNA ASK THAT.
SO WHAT DO YOU DO WITH THAT? SO YOU DON'T WANT IT TO BE PUBLIC RECORD, YOU KNOW, BUT YOU'RE GONNA HAVE TO MAKE CONTACT WITH THE RESIDENT BECAUSE YOU GOT TO ACTUALLY SEE, AND I CAN GIVE YOU THE DETAILS ON THAT.
[00:55:01]
YOU RECALL THAT THERE WAS A HOUSE ON THE CORNER PROPERTY.AND SO A COUPLE IN THERE I RECALL.
I JUST THINK, AGAIN, IT'S JUST SOMETHING YOU CAN DO IT, AND IT, IT'S LAID OUT IN THE HANDBOOK HOW YOU SHOULD DO IT.
BUT IF YOU DO IT IN A MANNER THAT LIKE THREE OF YOU GO OUT THERE, IT'S A PUBLIC MEETING.
AND IT WOULD HAVE TO HAVE THE SAME NOTICE AS A PUBLIC MEETING OF YOU SITTING HERE.
UM, THE OTHER THING, YOU, AGAIN, THIS IS JUST ONE OF THOSE THINGS WHERE YOU CAN DO IT, BUT YOU JUST GOTTA BE CAREFUL, IS BECAUSE IF YOU GO OUT THERE AND START INTERACTING WITH THE APPLICANT, LET'S SAY, YOU KNOW, IN THAT CASE IT'S A PROPERTY OWNER THAT'S EX PARTE COMMUNICATION.
SO THERE ARE INSTANCES WHERE A COMMUNITY WILL, WILL DO THIS FOR THEIR, THEIR BOARDS.
IF YOU'RE GONNA DO THIS, THEY'LL SAY, WE'RE THE, THE APPLICANT HAS SET UP THIS AMOUNT OF TIME, YOU KNOW, DURING THIS DAY OR WHATEVER FOR YOU TO STOP BY.
AND MAYBE SOMETIMES THEY'LL MARK OUT WHERE THE STORAGE BARN'S GONNA GO.
SO YOU CAN SEE IT, OR THEY'LL DO SOMETHING, BUT THEY ARE NOT GONNA BE PARTICIPATING IN SHOWING YOU ANYTHING OR WALKING YOU AROUND OR DOING ANYTHING.
AND THEN YOU ALL KIND OF, WITHOUT TRYING TO FORMALLY, YOU KNOW, ORGANIZE IT, JUST STOP BY AND, AND, YOU KNOW, SAY DURING THIS TIMEFRAME.
SO LIKE, MAYBE THERE'S A DAY WHERE IT'S SET UP TO IT AND THEN YOU'RE NOT COORDINATING AS A PUBLIC MEETING.
IT'S JUST THAT THEY KNOW, YOU KNOW, SO THERE'S NOT SOME WHO IS THAT TRAIPSING AROUND THERE, THAT KIND OF QUESTIONABLE BEHAVIOR FROM A STANDPOINT OF YOU DON'T WANT ANYBODY CALLING THE POLICE ON YOU, BUT I'M SO THAT, THAT IS ONE WAY TO DO IT WHERE, YOU KNOW, THERE'S THERE, BECAUSE AGAIN, YOU DON'T WANNA BE TALKING TO THE APPLICANT ON THEIR PROPERTY ABOUT, YOU KNOW, YOU DON'T WANT THEM SHOWING YOU AROUND OR DOING ANYTHING.
BUT THEY CAN, THEY CAN MARK IT OUT AND YOU COULD STOP BY.
AND I'VE SEEN THAT DONE THAT WAY.
I JUST WANTED TO MAKE EVERYBODY HERE TO BE CLEAR.
'CAUSE I THINK WE HAD A SITUATION LIKE THAT ONE TIME OR WENT BY THAT GARAGE THING.
AND SO I WOULDN'T SAY PICK UP THE PHONE AND SAY, HEY MS. NEWBIE, YOU WANT TO GO LOOK AT THIS PROPERTY? RIGHT.
YOU KNOW, I COULD JUST SAY, OH, THAT'S WHERE THAT FENCE IS.
'CAUSE YOU LOOK AT A LOT PLAN OR YOU LOOK AT A PHOTO AND YOU'RE LIKE, DON'T GET THE ACTUAL REALITY OF WHAT IT IS.
WELL, AND THERE'S, AGAIN, THERE'S NO PROBLEM WITH YOU, YOU KNOW, AS PART OF THE REQUEST AS ASKING THE PROPERTY OWNER, IS THERE A TIME OR A DAY WHERE WE CAN STOP BY? AND THAT'S WHAT WE NORMALLY DO.
THAT PART SO THAT THEY KNOW THAT YOU MIGHT BE LIKE, SOMEBODY MIGHT BE STOPPING BY, BUT I WOULD MAKE IT ABUNDANTLY CLEAR.
YOU CAN'T HAVE A DISCUSSION WITH THEM.
AND THE OTHER THING IS, YOU KNOW, IF IT'S, UH, YOU KNOW, THERE'S, THE OTHER THING YOU CAN DO IF YOU DON'T THINK YOU CAN MAKE A SITE VISIT JUST BECAUSE OF TIMING OR WHATEVER, IS YOU CAN ASK FOR ADDITIONAL INFORMATION.
SO YOU CAN SAY, HEY, CAN YOU RUN OUT AND TAKE A PICTURE OF IT FROM THIS ANGLE? OR, YOU KNOW, REQUEST THAT STAFF GO, KIND OF DO THAT KIND OF THING AS WELL.
AND THEY, AND, AND THE STAFF IS GOOD ABOUT THAT.
THEY GIVE A LOT OF GOOD DOCUMENTATION.
'CAUSE I KNOW THERE WAS A COUPLE TIMES THAT WE NEEDED TO GO AND SEE HOW IT WAS ANGLED, BUT, UH, MAJORITY OF THE TIME WE REALLY DON'T HAVE TO, BECAUSE THE STAFF PROVIDES GREAT INFORMATION WHERE WE CAN MAKE A FAIR DECISION ON A, ON A, ON A CASE.
BUT I JUST WANTED TO JUST MAKE SURE, YOU KNOW.
IT, AGAIN, THE HANDBOOK IS VERY, IS WAS KIND OF PREEMPTIVELY ALREADY TALKS ABOUT THAT AND SAYS THE SAME THINGS LIKE I'M MENTIONING IS, YOU KNOW, YOU JUST HAVE TO BE CAREFUL THAT, AGAIN, OF THE COMMUNICATIONS AND HOW MANY OF YOU ARE OUT THERE AT THE SAME TIME.
AND THERE ARE, THERE ARE OPINIONS FROM THE ETHICS COMMISSIONS OF, YOU KNOW, AGAIN, PEOPLE TRYING TO BE CUTE AND DOING IT TWO, TWO AND ONE, YOU KNOW, SAFE VISITING.
SO THERE ARE AVOIDING, THEY'RE STAYING UNDER THAT NOTIFICATION REQUIREMENT OR WHATEVER, AND THEY'RE DOING IT INTENTIONALLY.
BUT, UM, I'M, I'M JUST JUMPING BACK ONE SLIDE.
IT'S PROBABLY, YOU KNOW, JUST SHOULD BE BETTER AFTERWARDS.
BUT, UM, YOUR NOTICE, LIKE EVERYTHING NEEDS TO BE TIMELY AND, UH, AND ADEQUATE.
YOU HAVE IT IN YOUR CODE THAT'S, I THINK IT'S 10 DAYS NOTICE.
THAT IS THE STANDARD PRACTICE IN MOST COMMUNITIES IN OHIO FOR MOST ALMOST EVERY BOARD OF, UH, ZONING APPEALS KIND OF A HEARING.
UM, PART OF THAT IS IT'S ENOUGH TIME IN THEORY, THERE'S ALWAYS GONNA BE PEOPLE THAT COMPLAIN, BUT IT GIVES PEOPLE TIME TO COME TO THE, THE CITY HALL TO LOOK AT THE APPLICATION OR ANY, ANY, ANY INFORMATION THAT MIGHT BE IN THERE TO GET SOMEBODY WHO MAYBE THEY NEED A REPRESENTATIVE IN FRONT OF THERE OR TO DO THAT KIND OF WORK.
UM, THE LEGAL REQUIREMENTS FOR, FROM STATE LAW ARE THE BARE MINIMUM.
BUT, YOU KNOW, IN THEORY, THE CITY, IF YOU HEAR A LOT OF COMPLAINTS, I DIDN'T KNOW, YOU KNOW, I DIDN'T THINK 10 DAYS IS NOW YOU ARE MORE THAN WELCOME AS A CITY TO INCREASE STANDARDS TO,
[01:00:01]
YOU KNOW, SAY WE, WE WANNA HAVE 15 DAYS NOTICE, OR WE WANNA HAVE A SIGN OUT FRONT.UM, NOT TOO MANY COMMUNITIES DO SIGNS FOR VARIANCES, BUT LIKE A ZONING AMENDMENT, A LOT OF TIMES A COMMUNITY WILL POP A SIGN OUT ON A LOT AND SAY, YOU KNOW, HUBER HEIGHTS IS HAVING A ZONING AMENDMENT HEARING RELATED TO THIS SITE ON THIS DAY.
SO YOU CAN GO ABOVE AND BEYOND WHAT THE MINIMUM REQUIREMENTS ARE.
I JUST ALWAYS SAY, KEEP IT CONSISTENT SO ALL OF YOUR HEARINGS ARE NOTICED IN THE SAME MANNER.
AND THEN, YOU KNOW, I KIND OF HEARD JUST, I KNOW YOU DIDN'T HAVE A PUBLIC HEARING TODAY, BUT YOU HAVE A PROCESS OBVIOUSLY WITH YOUR AGENDA.
AND YOU GO THROUGH AND THE DECISION MAKINGS YOU HAVE, ALL OF THAT IS VERY IMPORTANT TO CONTROLLING A MEETING.
SO OBVIOUSLY THERE'S NOT MUCH TO CONTROL HERE.
WE'RE NOT
BUT HAVING THAT KIND OF FORMAL AGENDA FOR YOUR MEETINGS AND FOR HEARINGS, I KIND OF PUT AN EXAMPLE OF A PUBLIC HEARING PROCESS UP HERE IS VERY GOOD.
UM, AGAIN, I, I WILL KEEP REITERATING HOW IMPORTANT THAT HANDBOOK IS, IS THE WHOLE KIND OF INFORMATION THEY HAVE ON MAKING MOTIONS AND HOW TO, YOU KNOW, MODIFY THOSE MOTIONS IS MORE THAN ANY OTHER BOARD HAS USUALLY IN FRONT OF THEM.
I AM BY NO MEANS A A KNOWLEDGEABLE PERSON ON ROBERT'S RULES OR ANY
SO THAT'S A VERY GOOD RESOURCE.
AND YOU ALSO, YOU WILL ALSO HAVE THE BENEFIT OF STAFF.
NOT EVERY BOARD OF ZONING APPEALS OUT THERE HAS STAFF THAT CAN KIND OF GUIDE YOU THROUGH THAT.
BUT WHEN YOU ARE DOING, IF YOU HAVE A, ONE THING I DIDN'T SEE IN THE HANDBOOK THAT YOU COULD DO AS A BOARD OF ZONING APPEALS IS ESTABLISHED, WHAT IS, WHAT IS THE RUNNING, UM, PROCESS WE WANNA HAVE FOR ANY PUBLIC HEARING? SO WE OPEN A PUBLIC HEARING ON SUCH AND SUCH A CASE.
WHAT DO WE DO NEXT? DO WE HAVE THE APPLICANT SPEAK? DO WE HAVE THE STAFF DO A PRESENTATION, UM, YOU KNOW, WHAT'S THE ORDER OF THINGS? AND THEN ANNOUNCE THAT OR HAVE IT, YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU SIGN IN SO THAT PEOPLE KNOW, OH, IF I'M, IF I'M OPPOSED TO IT, I CAN COME UP AND SPEAK AT THIS POINT.
IF I'M FOR IT, I WOULD COME UP AND SPEAK AT THAT.
UM, HOW TO ADDRESS, YOU KNOW, ADDRESS QUESTIONS TO THE BOARD BECAUSE IT'S A BOARD THAT WILL BE ASKING QUESTIONS BACK OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT.
SO THEY MAY BE COMING UP AND SAYING, I'M OPPOSED TO IT AND, YOU KNOW, I WANNA HAVE MORE INFORMATION ON TRAFFIC.
THAT IS UP TO YOU TO, TO DECIDE IF YOU'RE GONNA ASK FOR ADDITIONAL INFORMATION OR TO HAVE THE APPLICANT COME UP AND SPEAK TO THAT.
UM, SO YOU'RE KIND OF THE ONES IN CONTROL OF THE HEARING PROCESS.
PART OF OF HAVING KIND OF A SET OF RULES IS SO THAT EVERYBODY KNOWS THE PROCESS.
EVERYBODY'S CLEAR THAT EVERYBODY'S GONNA HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO BE HEARD, TO SPEAK AND BE HEARD.
UM, IT'S ALSO IMPORTANT THAT YOU CAN REQUEST PEOPLE TO BE RELATIVELY CIVIL.
NOW THAT DOESN'T MEAN THAT PEOPLE CAN'T COME UP AND BE UPSET OR SPEAK, YOU KNOW, AGAINST SOMETHING, BUT IF THEY ARE JUST UP HERE BEING DISRUPTIVE, AND AGAIN, YOUR HANDBOOK GOES INTO THIS, YOU CAN, YOU CAN CALL DISORDER AND HAVE PEOPLE REMOVED.
AND AGAIN, THE WORST THING YOU COULD DO IS IF YOU JUST DON'T LIKE WHAT SOMEBODY SAID, THAT'S NOT BEING DISORDERLY.
IT'S WHEN SOMEBODY'S, YOU KNOW, READY TO CAUSE VIOLENCE OR ANYTHING THAT YOU CAN HAVE PEOPLE REMOVED.
BUT HOPEFULLY YOU DON'T HAVE TO DEAL WITH THAT A LOT.
BUT, YOU KNOW, EXPLAINING THE KIND OF RULES OF EXPECTATION, I THINK IS ALWAYS KIND OF A GOOD THING.
ESPECIALLY THE MORE CONTENTIOUS THE HEARING YOU, YOU THINK YOU MIGHT HAVE.
I DON'T SEE THIS USUALLY BEING A HUGE PROBLEM WITH B ZS.
UM, I SEE IT A LOT MORE NOWADAYS IN COUNCIL HEARINGS BEING KIND OF RAMBUNCTIOUS AND PEOPLE GETTING ARRESTED IN THE NEWS AND, AND THAT KIND OF THING.
BUT AGAIN, ALL OF THIS IS JUST MAINTAINING ORDER AND, AND AGAIN, MAKING EVERY SURE EVERYBODY KNOWS THAT THIS, YOU KNOW, EVERYBODY'S GONNA HAVE THIS OPPORTUNITY AND HERE'S HOW IT'S GONNA PLAY OUT.
WELL, WE, WE, WE HAD A CASE, YOU KNOW, BUT I THINK THE STAFF, LIKE I SAID, THE STAFF, I CAN'T SAY MORE POSITIVE THING ABOUT THE STAFF.
I THINK WE HAD A CASE WHERE THE INDIVIDUAL GOT UPSET AND HE, HE FLAGGED ME.
HELL, YOU REMEMBER THAT? I REMEMBER THAT HAD TO BE COOL.
I MEAN, YOU KNOW, WE, WE, THE PUBLIC, WE, WE VOLUNTEERS, BUT THEN WE HAVE TO MAINTAIN THAT CONTROL BECAUSE WE REPRESENT THE CITY.
WE MIGHT NOT LIKE EVERYTHING THE CITY DO, BUT WE REPRESENT THE CITY.
AND THAT GENTLEMAN I WAS PRAYING TO JESUS, YOU KNOW, SO IT, WE HAVE HAD IT, BUT IT, IT WAS ABLE TO BE CONTROLLED ON THAT PART OF IT.
SO WE NOT ALLEVIATED FROM THAT TYPE OF STUFF.
[01:05:01]
I STUFF YEAH.I'VE NEVER HAD ANYBODY OPPOSE.
IS THERE A PANIC BUTTON IN THERE? ALL RIGHT.
YOU'RE NOT THE ONLY ONE THERE, BUT I AIN'T, I WASN'T SCARED.
OH, I JUST TELL YOU MAKE ONE WRONG MOVE.
I WOULD NO LONGER BE A BOARD MEMBER, BUT IT WAS JUST BECAUSE OF THE SITUATION.
AND WE SAID NO, WE WENT THROUGH ALL THE VARIANCES.
IF THE RULES SAY YOU CAN'T DO IT, YOU CAN'T DO IT.
AND THAT INDIVIDUAL, I DON'T KNOW WHAT HE THOUGHT THAT I COULD DO, YOU KNOW? SO INSTEAD OF HIM GEARING THESE OTHER GUY PEOPLE, HE DIRECTED IT TOWARDS ME.
BUT YEAH, IT WAS ONE OF TWO THAT I REMEMBER SOMEBODY GETTING UPSET
AND HE WAS VERY UPSET AND WE ALL WAITED UNTIL WE SAW HIS CAR LEAVE THE LOT.
CAN I ASK A QUESTION ALWAYS, UM, BASED ON WHAT EVA WAS SAYING, LIKE IF THE RULE SAYS NO, THAT WE CAN'T DO IT, WE CAN'T DO IT, IS THERE ANY WAY OR CAN, EVEN THOUGH WE KNOW THE RULE SAYS NO, IS THERE ANY WAY THAT WE COULD SAY, CAN WE HAVE STAFF LOOK AT THIS? OR SOMETHING OF THAT SORT? SO I'M GONNA GO BACK BECAUSE, 'CAUSE I WAS GONNA ASK THAT QUESTION.
AS FAR AS, UM, STAFF FOR GUIDANCE ON DIFFERENT, LIKE DIFFERENT THINGS THAT MIGHT COME BEFORE US AND SAY WE VOTE AND THE VOTE IS FOUR TO ONE.
YOU KNOW, FOUR OF US IS SAYING, OKAY, BUT ONE OF US IS SAYING, NO, I DON'T THINK THAT WE SHOULD DO THIS.
AND THAT PERSON HAS EXPRESSED THEIR CONCERNS OF WHY THEY THINK THAT WE SHOULDN'T DO IT.
CAN WE TABLE THAT AND PUT IT BACK TO THE STAFF AND ASK THEM, YOU KNOW, CAN YOU COME BACK TO US WITH, YOU KNOW, OR MAYBE, MAYBE I'M ASKING THIS, CAN WE ASK THE STAFF FOR THEIR SUGGESTION? SO THERE'S A, THERE'S A WHOLE BUNCH IN THAT QUESTION, BUT IT'S VERY GOOD QUESTION.
ONCE YOU'VE MADE A DECISION, THE DECISION IS MADE.
AND I BELIEVE IF I, I THINK I SAW IT IN ONE, UH, IN ONE PART OF CHAPTER 1127, I BELIEVE THERE IS LIKE A, A THING IN THERE THAT STATES MANY OF COMMUNITIES HAVE THIS, THAT IF YOU TURN SOMEBODY DOWN THAT THEY HAVE TO WAIT 12 MONTHS.
FOR ONE YEAR, WHICH IS NOT UNCOMMON.
SOME COMMUNITIES WAIT LONGER, SOME LESS.
SO IF YOU SAY NO, IT'S DONE, YOU KNOW, IT'S DONE.
THEY CAN'T COME BACK WITH ESSENTIALLY SUBSTANTIALLY THE SAME APPLICATION FOR A YEAR.
UM, HOWEVER, TO YOUR POINT OF IF, LET'S SAY IT'S NOT QUITE CLEAR, SO IF IT SAYS NO, USUALLY IT MEANS NO.
AND THAT'S A GOOD PLACE TO START WITH.
BUT THE WHOLE POINT OF THE VARIANCE IS THERE'S USUALLY NOT A ONE RULE THAT APPLIES TO A HUNDRED PERCENT OF THINGS, RIGHT? THERE'S LIKE A 1% OF SCENARIO WHERE YOU JUST HAVE A REALLY WEIRD LOT, UH, YOU KNOW, SOME KIND OF POLYGON LOT THAT NOBODY COULD ENVISION, BUT IT JUST HAPPENS TO BE, AND THAT SCENARIO WAS, YEAH, WE, YOU KNOW, THE RULE IS REALLY YOU SHOULDN'T BE ABLE TO DO IT.
BUT BECAUSE OF THAT REALLY, REALLY UNIQUE SITUATION, THAT'S WHERE THIS, THE VARIANCE CRITERIA COMES INTO PLAY, RIGHT? YOU KNOW, YOU LIVE RIGHT WHERE YOU READ EAT, WHAT IS IT, 12 OR 13 NOW, RIGHT? YEAH.
SO THERE IS NEVER REALLY A HUNDRED PERCENT NO MEANS NO, BUT TO YOUR POINT, THERE'S STILL THIS AREA, LIKE WHERE YOU LOOK AT THINGS, YOU KNOW, THESE CRITERIA AND STUFF LIKE THAT, THERE'S STILL A LOT OF DISCRETION WHERE YEAH, IT'S NOT REALLY CLEAR.
SO, UH, WHETHER THE VARIANCE IS SUBSTANTIAL IS KIND OF A, COULD BE A GRAY AREA BECAUSE MAYBE THEY'RE ASKING FOR TWO FEET, UH, TO ENCROACH INTO SOMETHING.
BUT YOU COULD LOOK AT IT AND SAY, THAT'S A LOT IN THAT SITUATION.
YOU KNOW, IS THERE A WAY THAT YOU, YOU KNOW, COULD DO IT WITH ONE FOOT OF AN ENCROACHMENT SO IT'S NOT QUITE AS SUBSTANTIAL? UM, YOU KNOW, THAT KIND OF THING.
SO THERE, YOU KNOW, ALL OF THESE HAVE DISCRETION.
SO THE QUESTION OF, THERE'S THE QUESTION OF WHERE CAN YOU GET ADDITIONAL GUIDANCE? CAN YOU ASK STAFF TO MAKE RECOMMENDATIONS THAT IS ENTIRELY UP TO THE CITY AND THEIR POLICY? I HAVE WORKED WITH COMMUNITIES THAT THE LEADERS, THE ELECTED OFFICIALS SAYS WE DON'T WANT STAFF MAKING FORMAL RECOMMENDATIONS.
AND THEIR STAFF REPORTS, THEY CAN GIVE YOU THE INFORMATION YOU ASK FOR, THEY CAN TELL YOU WHAT SECTIONS OF THE CODE TO LOOK AT, BUT WE DON'T LIKE, WANT THEM TO MAKE A RECOMMENDATION.
A LOT OF COMMUNITIES WILL SAY, WE WANT YOU TO SAY, YOU KNOW, WE WANT YOU TO GIVE THINGS TO CONSIDER.
[01:10:01]
NOT SAY, WE RECOMMEND YOU APPROVE IT, BUT THEY MIGHT SAY, IF YOU WANT TO APPROVE THIS, YOU MIGHT CONSIDER THIS.SO THE CONDITIONS OR, YOU KNOW, KIND OF GUIDING YOU TOWARDS SOME DECISIONS.
AND THEN THERE ARE A LOT OF COMMUNITIES TO SAY, WE WANT STAFF TO MAKE THE DECISION BECAUSE THEY'RE THE PROFESSIONAL EXPERTISE.
THEY KNOW THIS CODE LEFT AND RIGHT.
UM, YOU KNOW, WE WOULD LIKE FOR THEM TO RECOMMEND APPROVAL, RECOMMEND DENIAL, OR WHATEVER IT MAY BE.
SO THAT'S ENTIRELY ON THE CITY AS TO WHAT YOU WANNA DO.
OKAY? AS, AS THIS BOARD, WE CANNOT, CAN WE OR CAN WE NOT MAKE SUGGESTIONS TO THE APPLICANT ON CERTAIN THINGS.
SAY FOR INSTANCE, ME, I'M JOE BLOW, I COME AND I AM REQUESTING, I DON'T KNOW, SOMETHING TO BE 15 FEET OR WHATEVER.
AND AFTER WE LOOK AT THE STUFF AND A SUGGESTION MADE THAT IT WOULD WORK AT 18 FEET, OKAY? AS A BOARD, WE CANNOT MAKE THAT RECOMMENDATION TO THE APPLICATION THAT THEY NEED TO GO BACK AND, AND REQUEST FROM 15 TO 18 FEET.
AM I CORRECT OR AM I WRONG? YOU CAN YOU, SO YOU HAVE THE ABILITY TO APPLY CONDITIONS TO ANY APPROVAL.
SO YOU COULD SAY, YOU KNOW, A LOT OF TIMES YOU'LL A, A BIG, THIS IS WHERE I SEE LIKE THE BOARD OF ZONING APPEALS, ADDING THINGS TO THINGS.
SO LET'S SAY YOU HAVE SOMETHING WHERE SOMEBODY WANTS TO PUT THAT STORAGE BARN A LOT CLOSER TO A REAR LOT LINE THAN WOULD BE A ALLOWED, BECAUSE IT'S A REALLY WEIRD LOT LINE OR REALLY WEIRD LOT CONFIGURATION.
A LOT OF TIMES WHAT YOU'LL SEE IS THE APPLICANT WILL JUST COME IN AND ASK FOR A VARIANCE FOR THAT SETBACK TO REDUCE THE SETBACK.
BUT YOU AS A BOARD OF ZONING APPEALS MAY SAY, YOU KNOW WHAT THOUGH, THAT'S GONNA HAVE A REALLY BIG IMPACT ON OUR NEIGHBORS.
AND, YOU KNOW, WE'RE LOOKING AT, YOU KNOW, KIND OF ONE OF THESE THINGS ABOUT SUBSTANTIALLY ALTERING, YOU KNOW, THE CHARACTER OF THE NEIGHBORHOOD.
SO YOU SAY THAT'S NOT REALLY IDEAL FOR YOU TO JUST COME CLOSER TO THE SETBACK, BUT IF YOU PUT IN A FENCE OR YOU PUT IN A VEGETATIVE BUFFER, THAT'S GONNA SOFTEN THE APPEARANCE.
AND SO YOU COULD MAKE A RECOMMENDATION TO APPROVE THAT SETBACK CHANGE, BUT WITH THE ADDITIONAL CONDITION OF ADDING BUFFERING OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT.
OKAY? SO YOU HAVE THE ABILITY TO ADD CONDITIONS OR, UM, YOU KNOW, MODIFICATIONS TO ANY KIND OF THING.
BUT THE CRITICAL PIECE OF THAT IS IT'S GOTTA BE, WE CALL IT A NEXUS.
IT HAS TO BE RELATED TO THE REQUEST.
SO YOU CAN'T BE LIKE, OKAY, YOU WANT THAT REAR YARD SETBACK.
YOU CAN'T SAY, WELL, WE WANT A BUFFER IN THE FRONT YARD WHERE IT HAS NO RELATIONSHIP TO THAT.
WELL, WE WANT YOU TO REPAINT YOUR
YOU KNOW, SO IT'S GOTTA BE A CONDITION OR A SOMETHING THAT YOU'RE APPLYING THAT IS RELATED TO THEIR REQUEST AND THESE VARIANCE CRITERIA.
OKAY? SO, SO THE ONE THAT WE'VE HAD RECENTLY COME UP MORE THAN ONCE IS SOMEBODY WILL COME IN WITH A DESIGN THAT SAYS, HEY, WE NEED A VARIANCE AND WE WANT TO GET A TWO FOOT VARIANCE ON THE HEIGHT OF THIS BUILD.
RIGHT? AND THEY COME IN AND THEY SHOW US THE PLANS, AND THEY'RE ASKING FOR TWO FOOT OF VARIANCE, AND THEIR PLANS ARE EXACTLY TWO FOOT MM-HMM,
UNDERSTAND THAT IF THEY GO OUT THERE WITH THE TAPE MEASURE AFTER THEY BUILD THAT THING AND IT'S TWO FOOT, ONE INCH, YOU'RE COMING BACK HERE.
BECAUSE YOU'RE NOT GONNA GET APPROVED.
SO THAT'S RARELY AN ARGUMENT THAT THE BA SHOULD BE MAKING.
OKAY? BECAUSE THE BURDEN OF PROOF IS ON THE APPLICANT.
AND THE UNDERSTANDING IS THEY'RE ASKING FOR SOMEBODY FOR YOU TO GIVE THEM SOME LEEWAY, WHERE IN THEORY, THE ANSWER SHOULD BE NO.
BECAUSE LET'S SAY THEY CAN ONLY GO, THIS IS VERY COMMON.
I DON'T KNOW WHAT YOUR ACCESSORY BUILDING SETBACK OR HEIGHTS ARE, BUT LET'S SAY THEY'RE 15 FEET, I DON'T KNOW, 16 FEET, OH, IT'S CLOSE.
UH, ALL RIGHT, WE'RE CLOSE 16 FEET, WHATEVER IT MAY BE.
SO IF THEY'RE SAYING IT'S 16, YOU KNOW, THE, THE RULE IS 16 FEET AND THEY'RE COMING IN AND SAYING, WELL, WE REALLY WANT IT TO BE EIGHT FEET, FEET, THAT, YOU KNOW, IF YOU'RE SAYING, WELL, WHY DON'T YOU GO ONE FOOT, YOU'RE ACTUALLY INCREASING THE VARIANCE INSTEAD OF KEEPING IT, UH, YOU KNOW, ASKING THE QUESTION WHETHER IT'S SUBSTANTIAL TWO FEET IS NOT AS SUBSTANTIAL AS THREE FEET.
SO, YOU KNOW, PART OF IT IS THEY, THEY SHOULD BE UNDERSTANDING THAT THEY'RE ALREADY ASKING FOR MORE AND THEY SHOULD BE LUCKY THEY'RE GETTING TWO FEET.
AND THAT IF THEY GO, BECAUSE IF YOU GIVE THEM THREE FEET AND THEY GO THREE FEET, ONE, THEY'RE STILL IN VIOLATION OF THE CODE.
SO NO MATTER WHERE YOU DRAW THE LINE, THAT THAT'S THE LINE.
AND SO IT IS ON THEM TO UNDERSTAND THAT THEY VIOLATE, THAT THEY VIOLATE ANY COMMIT CONDITION.
SO, YOU KNOW, YOU DON'T USUALLY SEE THE BCA SAYING, OH, YOU'RE ASKING FOR THIS.
WELL, WHY DON'T WE GIVE YOU MORE? THAT'S, THAT'S KIND OF COUNTERINTUITIVE TO WHAT THIS VARIANCE IS, THESE VARIANCE CRITERIA, WHICH IS THEY SHOULD BE DOING THE LEAST AMOUNT OF CHANGES TO WHAT THE RULES
[01:15:01]
ARE.WELL, EVERY ONE OF THESE IS SUBJECTIVE TOO.
SUBSTANTIAL ME MAY NOT BE SUBSTANTIAL TO MR. DEAN.
HENCE WHY YOU EXIST, BECAUSE YOU ARE LOOKING AT THINGS ON A CASE BY CASE BASIS.
RIGHT? UM, BUT I WAS JUST REMEMBERING A CASE WE HAD WHERE WE HAD A PROF.
IT WAS A PROFESSIONAL COMPANY THAT HAD COME IN AND DONE SOME WORK AND THEY HAD GOTTEN THEIR VARIANCE, AND THEN ON POST INSPECTION THEY WERE OFF.
AND I THINK THE ARGUMENT WAS, WELL, I WAS MEASURING FROM THIS POINT, BUT YOUR INSPECTOR MEASURED FROM THAT POINT.
OKAY, WELL, AND PEEL THE INSPECTOR, THAT'S
AND THAT, THAT WAS A FRUSTRATING ONE, WHICH MADE ME, WHEN YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT BIAS, THAT MADE ME THINK ABOUT IT.
SO I MEAN, THAT'S, THAT, THAT'S A QUESTION OF INTERPRETATION.
SO ULTIMATELY THAT COMES DOWN TO THEY CAN APPEAL THE INSPECTOR'S DECISION OF THAT.
BUT, UM, YOU, YOU ALSO SEE, AND I DON'T KNOW HOW OFTEN THIS COMES TO YOU, YOU KNOW, BUT THERE ARE OBVIOUSLY A LOT OF PEOPLE THAT KNOW THE RULES AND VIOLATE THE RULES 'CAUSE THEY THINK IT'S EASIER TO ASK FOR FORGIVENESS BECAUSE, OH, ARE YOU REALLY GONNA MAKE ME TEAR DOWN? THAT NEVER HAPPENS, MS. ARE YOU REALLY, YOU'RE REALLY GONNA MAKE ME TEAR DOWN BECAUSE IT'S TWO FOOT, YOU KNOW, OR ONE ONE INCH ABOVE IT.
OR MAKE COVID OR MAKE, AND WE HAVE HAD SEVERAL CASES LIKE THAT.
OR THE U-HAUL PLACE WE HAD, THEY PUT UP ALL THAT STUFF AND THEN THEY COME BACK AND SAY, I DIDN'T KNOW THEY KNEW, OR I ALREADY POURED US.
WELL, AND I DON'T KNOW WHAT YOUR APPLICATION FEE IS TO COME IN FRONT OF YOU, BUT I'VE WORKED IN A LOT OF COMMUNITIES WHERE THEIR APPLICATION FEE WAS LIKE $25 TO ASK FOR A VARIANCE.
AND IT WAS LIKE, WELL, I MEAN, WHAT'S THE HARM? 25 BUCKS? I MIGHT GET WHATEVER I ASKED FOR
SO YOU SHOULD THINK ABOUT CHANGING IT 'CAUSE IT, YEAH.
SO, BUT NO, I MEAN, AGAIN, KIND OF GOING BACK TO WHERE, UH, WE KIND OF LEFT OFF, WHICH I DON'T REMEMBER WHERE WE WE ARE, BUT THESE ARE ALL GOOD.
THIS, THIS IS WHY I LIKE THESE KIND OF DISCUSSIONS MORE.
'CAUSE I THINK YOU LEARN MORE FROM IT.
BUT, UM, NO, WE ARE PAST THAT, AREN'T WE? UH, KIND OF, YEAH, CLEAR THE RULES.
AGAIN, GOING BACK TO THAT REITERATION OF JUST MAKING EVERYBODY AWARE OF WHAT'S GOING ON AND MAKING SURE EVERYBODY KNOWS NOW ARE THEY LISTENING? UH, MAYBE NOT, BUT, UM, BUT ONE OF THE THINGS YOU KNOW, I WILL TALK ABOUT HERE IN A SECOND IS NO MATTER WHAT THE BURDEN OF PROOF IS ALWAYS ON THE PERSON COMING IN FRONT OF YOU.
YOU ARE HERE TO ASSESS THE SITUATION, NOT TO DEFEND WHATEVER THEY'RE ASKING FOR THAT IS ON THEM.
UM, I, ONE THING I DID NOT LOOK AT BEFORE, THIS IS THE APPLICATION FOR A VARIANCE.
AND WHETHER YOU LITERALLY ARE LIKE, HERE'S OUR CRITERIA FOR A VARIANCE.
THAT'S A GREAT WAY TO GET THEM TO KNOW WHAT THEY'RE GONNA HAVE TO DEFEND IN FRONT OF THE BOARD OF ZONING APPEALS.
HERE ARE THE SEVEN OR EIGHT CRITERIA WE HAVE.
LET US KNOW HOW YOU JERRY, I DO A LOT OF THAT WORK.
SO YOU CAN PUT IT ON THE APPLICANT.
THERE'S ALL, THERE'S, THERE'S A LOT OF COMMUNITIES THAT THEIR APPLICATION FEE.
THE SECOND ONE IS LIKE, HERE IS THE EIGHT CRITERIA AND EITHER FILL IT OUT OR BE PREPARED TO ADDRESS THIS AT THE MEETING BECAUSE THIS IS WHAT THE BOARD OF ZONING FEELS GONNA BE LOOKING AT.
UM, KIND OF GOING THROUGH SOME OF THE REST OF THIS PRETTY EASILY.
YOU HAVE SOME PROVISIONS IN THERE THAT KIND OF WALKS YOU THROUGH THAT.
SO, YOU KNOW, THIS IST A HUGE CONCERN, BUT THE ONE THING YOU CAN'T DO IS KEEP TABLING STUFF TO AVOID A DECISION.
UM, I DON'T SEE IT HAPPEN VERY OFTEN, BUT IT DOES HAPPEN.
BUT DON'T TAKE THAT TO MEAN THAT YOU DON'T GET, YOU DON'T HAVE THAT, YOU CAN'T TAKE SUBSTANTIAL OR SIGNIFICANT TIME IF IT'S A COMPLICATED PROCESS.
AND THEY ALWAYS BRING UP AN EXAMPLE OF ANDERSON TOWNSHIP, WHICH IS WAY DOWN THERE SOUTH OF CINCINNATI.
UH, THEY HAD A UNDERGROUND MINING APPLICATION CONDITIONAL USE.
SO IT WENT TO THEIR BOARD OF ZONING APPEALS.
UM, I BELIEVE EVERY PROFESSIONAL PLANNER THAT DID EXPERT WORK AND EVERY LAND USE ATTORNEY IN THIS REGION WAS INVOLVED BECAUSE INDIAN HILL WAS REPRESENT, LIKE ALL THE ADJACENT COMMUNITIES DIDN'T WANT IT TO COME IN.
I BELIEVE THE HEARING WENT FOR EIGHT OR NINE MONTHS.
THEY KEPT TABLING IT BECAUSE THERE WAS SO MUCH TESTIMONY TO BE HEARD THAT WAS NOT TRYING TO AVOID A DECISION THAT WAS LETTING EVERYBODY BE HEARD ON A VERY UNIQUE SITUATION.
SO, YOU KNOW, JUST BECAUSE YOU NEED TO TABLE SOMETHING AND TO, YOU KNOW, OR CONTINUE IT TO THE NEXT MEETING BECAUSE THERE'S A LOT OF PEOPLE HERE AND YOU DON'T WANNA BE HERE TILL TWO IN THE MORNING.
THAT'S NOT DELAYING, YOU KNOW, THE DECISION, YOU ARE LETTING EVERYBODY HEARD, BUT DON'T, YOU KNOW, JUST KEEP SAYING,
[01:20:01]
I DON'T KNOW, LET'S CONTINUE THIS TO OUR NEXT MEETING.UM, YOU NEED TO BE MAKING DECISION FOR A PREDICTABILITY KIND OF STANDPOINT.
UM, THE COMPLETE RECORDS KIND OF THING.
UM, THIS IS WHERE, AND I, WHEN I WAS TALKING ABOUT EARLIER, WHAT HAPPENS WHEN PEOPLE APPEAL A DECISION YOU MAKE, YOU KNOW, THIS IS WHERE WHEN YOU HAVE YOUR PUBLIC HEARING AND THEN YOU KIND OF CLOSE THE PUBLIC INVOLVEMENT PROCESS AND YOU DELIBERATE WHEN YOU'RE MAKING A MOTION AND TALKING ABOUT WHETHER YOU WANT TO APPROVE OR DENY, APPROVE WITH MODIFICATIONS OR CONDITIONS, YOU SHOULD BE TALKING TO THOSE STANDARDS.
YOU SHOULD BE REFERENCING SECTIONS OF THE CODE.
YOU SHOULD BE EXPLAINING ON THE RECORD WHY YOU'RE MAKING A DECISION TO, FOR OR AGAINST.
AND AGAIN, THE REASON BEING IS WHEN THIS GETS APPEALED, IT GETS APPEALED TO CON UH, THE COMMON PLEA COURT.
AND THE JUDGE IS GONNA LOOK AT YOUR RECORD AND SAY, CAN I FOLLOW ALONG AND READ HOW THIS WENT? AS I SAY, A NON-INVOLVED PARTY SHOULD BE ABLE TO TRACK HOW THIS ALL WENT DOWN.
IF THEY LOOK AT IT AND THEY SAY, YEAH, I FOLLOW ALONG, THEN THEY WILL MAKE A DECISION BASED ON THE RECORD.
IF YOU JUST DECIDED TO BE LAZY ONE DAY AND YOU WOULD JUST LIKE, NO, WE'RE GONNA DENY THIS AND NOT EXPLAIN WHY YOU MADE YOUR DECISION OR THE THE BACKING OF YOUR DECISION, THE JUDGE IS VERY LIKELY GONNA OPEN THE CASE AGAIN.
AND THEY'RE GONNA START THE WHOLE PROCESS AGAIN BY ALLOWING PARTIES OF INTEREST TO COME SPEAK TO THE JUDGE AND EXPLAIN THEIR SITUATION TO ALLOW NEW EVIDENCE.
AND SO NOW YOU HAVE BASICALLY PUNTED YOUR WORK TO A JUDGE THAT MAY NOT HAVE ANY TIES TO HUBER HEIGHTS.
SO, YOU KNOW, AND MY UNDERSTANDING IS THAT YOU'VE BEEN VERY GOOD ABOUT, YOU KNOW, KIND OF MAKING THAT VERY PUBLIC AS TO WHY YOU'VE MADE A DECISION, LIKE YOU SAID EARLIER WHERE YOU TALK ABOUT, YOU KNOW, THEY DIDN'T LIKE IT, BUT WE FOLLOWED OUR RULES AND OUR CRITERIA AND WE EXPLAINED WHY WE DID IT.
THAT IS, THIS COULDN'T BE ANY MORE CRITICAL BECAUSE OF THAT SCENARIO.
YEAH, THE SEVENTH, THE, THE CRITERIA.
SO THAT'S ESSENTIALLY, BUT IT'S PUTTING IT ON THE RECORD BY MEETING YES.
AND YOU COULD SAY LIKE, ONE OF THOSE MIGHT NOT APPLY BECAUSE I DON'T KNOW, WHATEVER IT IS, IT'S AREA.
YOU COULD SAY, I DON'T THINK THIS APPLIES IN THIS CASE AND YOU MOVE ON, UM, HAVE SOME THAT DON'T APPLY ANY VOTE ON, BUT IT SEEMS KIND OF SILLY, BUT WE'VE NEVER SAID THIS ONE DOESN'T APPLY.
SO YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT THE VARIANCE YEAH.
OR, AND, AND APPEALS, LIKE I SAID, THERE'S NOT A STATED CRITERIA, BUT YOU COULD SAY, I THINK THAT THERE WAS AN ERROR MADE BECAUSE THIS SECTION SAYS THIS AND LIKE THE HEIGHT ONE, YOU KNOW, WHERE THE GUY COULD HAVE APPEALED THESE INSPECTOR'S HEIGHT IS THAT IF THE RULE SAYS IT'S MEASURED FROM LET'S SAY THE AVERAGE GRADE AND IN THE MIDDLE OF A BUILDING AND THE INSPECTOR CAME OUT AND TOOK IT AT THE FRONT OF THE BUILDING, WHICH HAPPENED TO BE HIGHER OR LOWER OR WHATEVER IT WAS, YOU KNOW, BUT THE, THE RULE SAID IT WAS THE AVERAGE IN IN BETWEEN.
YOU MIGHT SAY, WELL, THAT'S NOT, YOU KNOW, THAT GOES AGAINST WHAT OUR, OUR OUR, UM, THE ZONING INSPECTOR KIND OF MEASURED WHAT IS NOT IN OUR CODE.
UM, SO THAT WE BELIEVE THEY MADE AN ERROR.
AND SO WE OVERTURN THAT DECISION.
THAT COULD BE SOMETHING WHERE YOU'RE JUST EXPLAINING WHAT THE ERROR IS.
YOU SAID THOSE WERE, DID YOU SAY DUNHAM'S RULES? UH, UH, DUNCAN FACTORS.
SO THERE IS A, UH, DUNCAN VERSUS MIDDLE, THANK YOU, UH, MY A ICP EXAMS COMING BACK TO ON ME.
BUT IT'S A, IT'S A FAMOUS COURT CASE THAT THE DUNCAN FACTORS CAME OUT OF.
SO ALMOST EVERY COMMUNITY USES THOSE FACTORS ONE WAY OR ANOTHER, WHETHER IT'S IN THEIR CODE OR NOT FACTOR.
SO HERE'S MY LAST COUPLE OF SLIDES AND YOU KNOW, THEN WE CAN ASK, WE CAN HAVE ANY MORE QUESTIONS YOU WANT OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT.
SO THINGS TO KEEP IN YOUR MIND.
UM, YOU DON'T HAVE TO BELIEVE EVERYTHING YOU HEAR
JUST BECAUSE EVERYBODY SEEMS TO BE OUT AGAINST IT DOESN'T NECESSARILY MEAN THAT YOU HAVE TO VOTE AGAINST IT.
UM, AND YOU CAN RELY ON YOUR PERSONAL KNOWLEDGE TO MAKE IT PART OF THE RECORD.
SO I HAVE A PERSONAL EXAMPLE OF THIS.
I WAS SITTING ON THE DIOCESE, I WAS THE CHAIR OF THE ZONING COMMISSION AND AN APPLICANT CAME IN FOR A PUD AND IT WAS A PUD FOR A VERY SMALL COUPLE OF ACRES BECAUSE THEY WERE GONNA CONNECT A ROAD SO IT WOULD CONNECT TWO COUNTY ROADS.
IT WAS THE ADDITION TO A 200 ACRE PUD WITH LIKE 300 HOUSES THAT HAD ALREADY BEEN APPROVED AND LONG KIND OF UNDER THING.
PEOPLE CAME OUT JUST ADAMANT THAT WE COULD NOT HAVE A THROUGH STREET.
[01:25:01]
THEY WILL TELL YOU THAT IS THAT STREET, WHICH IS THE NEXT THROUGH STREET IS AN INTERSTATE HIGHWAY.
JUST PEOPLE COMING UP LEFT AND RIGHT, FOLKS.
UH, AND I SAID, YOU KNOW, I APPRECIATE YOUR COMMENT, BUT I CAN TELL YOU WHEN I STOP AT FIVE O'CLOCK DURING RUSH HOUR TO PICK UP MY MAIL AT MY POST, UH, MY POST-UP BOX, UM, I MIGHT SEE A CAR.
BUT NO, WE DON'T HAVE A LOT OF TRAFFIC HERE.
AND THIS, THE ONE THEY'RE PROPOSING IS VERY CURVILINEAR, SO IT'S NOT KIND OF COMPARABLE, YOU KNOW? AND I SAID, DO YOU HAVE ANY OTHER EVIDENCE THAT THAT WOULD BE SUBSTANTIATED? LIKE THAT THAT'S NOT A WEIRD TIME OR SOMETHING.
AND THEY DIDN'T KNOW THAT WAS JUST THEIR KIND OF OPINION.
UM, AND SO I VERY NICELY KIND OF SAID, I APPRECIATE WHAT YOU SAID, BUT I DON'T FIND THAT TO BE TRUE.
AND I PUT IT ON RECORD THAT, YOU KNOW, I DO LIVE THERE AND IT'S NOT A HIGHWAY AT ALL.
UM, AND I THINK THAT THIS ONE, AND I, I SHOULD ALWAYS LEAVE THIS AS THE LAST SLIDE PROBABLY, BUT IS YOU ARE NOT A CAPIN OF COMPASSION.
UM, AS MUCH AS YOU MAY BE THE MOST EMPATHETIC PEOPLE IN THE WORLD, AND YOU DO HAVE A LOT OF COMPASSION FOR PEOPLE, YOU HAVE RULES TO SUBSCRIBE TO, AND YOU ARE HERE FOR, YOU KNOW, THAT PURPOSE THAT IS LOOKING AT THE VARIANCE BASED ON CRITERIA OR LOOKING AT APPEALS BASED ON ERROR.
UM, SO JUST BECAUSE EVERYBODY OUT HERE MIGHT BE GIVING YOU A REALLY SAD STORY ABOUT WHY, YOU KNOW, WHY YOU SHOULDN'T MAKE ME TEAR DOWN MY BUILDING 'CAUSE IT'S ONLY ONE INCH OVER.
YEAH, IT'S ONE, SORRY, YOU KNOW, THAT THAT IS YOUR DOING OR WHATEVER IT MAY BE.
E AND THEN AGAIN, THIS IS WHERE I ALSO GET INTO THE BURDEN OF PROOF.
SO IT'S ULTIMATELY STAFF MAY BE ASSISTING, YOU KNOW, IT'S NOT UNUSUAL FOR STAFF TO ASSIST AN APPLICANT AND KIND OF HELP THEM UNDERSTAND WHAT IS IT THAT THE BOARD IS GONNA BE LOOKING AT OR, YOU KNOW, DO YOU MIGHT WANNA KIND OF LOOK AT THIS ON YOUR APPLICATION.
IT'S VERY KIND OF COMMON FOR THEM TO HELP AND IT, BUT ULTIMATELY IF THEY DON'T DO THE WORK TO SHOW YOU THAT, HOWEVER, IT'S, YOU KNOW, WHATEVER THE CRITERIA IS THAT'S ON THEM, OR IF YOU GIVE THEM A CONDITION AND THEY DECIDE NOT TO TO IGNORE YOUR REQUIREMENTS, THAT'S ON THEM.
SO IT'S ALL GONNA COME BACK TO THE APPLICANT, OKAY? UM, BUT ULTIMATELY YOUR BIG RESPONSIBILITY IS WEIGHING EVERYTHING THAT YOU HEARD, GOOD, BAD, OR INDIFFERENT.
UM, YOU KNOW, WHAT DID THE APPLICANT SAY? WHAT DID PEOPLE WHO CAME OUT TO SPEAK ON IT SAY, YOU KNOW? AND JUST BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE, I MEAN, AGAIN, THIS IS WHERE ONE OF THOSE THINGS IS THEY CAN BRING YOU INFORMATION AND MAYBE IT'S NOT, YOU KNOW, UH, MAYBE IT IS KIND OF AN OPINION AND YOU CAN ASK THEM FOR ANY KIND OF EVIDENCE AND STUFF LIKE THAT, BUT YOU HAVE THE CHOICE TO NOT BELIEVE THEM, BUT YOU ALSO HAVE THE CHOICE TO BELIEVE IT IF YOU KNOW, AGAIN, DEPENDING ON YOUR KIND OF BACKGROUND UNDERSTANDING OF THE SCENARIO.
I KNOW ONE OF THE BIG THINGS I ALWAYS HEAR IS THE OPINION OF LIKE FLOODING, OH MY GOSH, IT'S GONNA FLOOD.
WELL, THERE ARE CASES WHERE YOU MAY, AGAIN, IT MAY NOT BE A FLOOD ZONE THAT YOU COULD BE EASILY DOCUMENTED, BUT YOU MAY BE AWARE BECAUSE OF NEWS ARTICLES, RIGHT NOW ALL THE NEWS IS SHOWING FLOODED, YOU KNOW, BACK DRAINAGE AREAS AND STUFF LIKE THAT THAT AREN'T GONNA BE ON FLOOD PAIN MASS.
YOU MAY BE AWARE OF THAT, YOU KNOW, IS THAT FACT? NO, IT'S PERSONAL KNOWLEDGE.
SO THE DECISION KIND OF HELPING YOU ALONG IS AGAIN, USING THE APPLICATION PROCESS TO AT LEAST FEED THE APPLICANT WHAT THEY HAVE TO BRING YOU, YOU KNOW, WHAT THEY HAVE TO KNOW, YOU KNOW, STAPLING THAT SECTION 1127, THE CRITERIA TO THE BACK OF A, OF AN APPLICATION.
YOU DON'T HAVE TO READ THE ENTIRE CODE AT THE MOMENT, BUT YOU KNOW ABOUT THIS.
AND THEN HAVING STAFF BE YOUR FIRST LINE OF DEFENSE.
NOW AGAIN, IF YOU WANT THEM TO MAKE A RECOMMENDATION, I MEAN, THAT'S THE POLICY.
UH, I DON'T KNOW IF COUNSEL WOULD WANNA DO THAT OR WHATEVER, BUT, BUT THAT IS ENTIRELY UP TO YOU DO TO YOU.
EVERY COMMUNITY DOES IT DIFFERENTLY.
I'VE ALWAYS FELT LIKE IT WAS UP TO ME TO PRESENT THE FACTS IN MEMBERS AND WHEN THIS JOB WAS PASSED ME, THERE WAS NOTHING ABOUT STAFF RECOMMENDATION.
UM, I'M HAPPY TO QUESTION, BUT I AND I THAT, UM, I READ THE REPORT, I GIVE THE FACTS TO ANSWER THE QUESTIONS.
I NOT, THAT'S, THERE'S BEEN SOME TALK ABOUT SHOULD I BE DOING THAT? MAYBE, MAYBE WE'LL DISCUSS THAT WITH, UH, SENIOR STAFF.
YEAH, I THINK IT'S DISCUSSING WITH SENIOR AND ALSO DISCUSSING IT WITH THE LAW DIRECTOR BECAUSE AGAIN, IT REALLY COMES DOWN TO LOCAL POLICY ON THAT.
I AM, UM, I AM KIND OF CONTRACT STAFF FOR SILVERTON, OHIO, BUT ONLY ON THEIR, I DON'T
[01:30:01]
DO THEIR DAY-TO-DAY STUFF, BUT I DO, LIKE IF SOMETHING COMES TO THE BOARD OF ZONING APPEALS, I DO THEIR RESEARCH AND THE THINGS AND UM, THEY HAVE ME DO A STAFF REPORT AND I DON'T, YOU KNOW, I, I DON'T COME OUT AND SAY, I THINK YOU SHOULD DO THIS, BUT I PUT OUT THE FACTS OF, UH, ONE OF THE, YOU KNOW, ONE OF THE THINGS THEY DON'T ALLOW IS FENCES IN THE FRONT YARD AND SOMEBODY BUILT A FENCE IN THEIR FRONT YARD AND THEN THEY CAME IN AND ASKED FOR FORGIVENESSUM, BUT YOU KNOW, ONE OF THE THINGS I STATE IS, YOU KNOW, THE HISTORY OF THE CASE AND THEN I GO THROUGH AND SAY, YOU KNOW, THEY HAD MADE THE ARGUMENT THE FENCE HAD BEEN THERE SINCE THE SIXTIES OR WHATEVER.
AND I
AND I WENT IN 2018, IT WASN'T THERE IN 2020.
AND I PUT THAT IN, I PUT ALL OF THIS INFORMATION TO KIND OF COUNTER, UM, YOU KNOW, SOME OF THEIR APPLICATION ARGUMENTS, NOT INTENTIONALLY, BUT TO AGAIN, INSTITUTE THE FACTS OF THE CASE.
AND I SAID, NO, IT'S NOT A FACT.
UM, AND THEN ULTIMATELY THEY ASKED ME TO, I WOULD SAY SOFTLY MAKE A RECOMMENDATION.
AND SO I BASICALLY SAID THAT IF, UM, THAT BASICALLY THE, THE BOARD OF ZONING CAMIL APPEALS COULD CONSIDER DENYING THIS BASED ON THIS.
SO BASED ON THE FACT THAT IT WASN'T THERE.
SO IT'S NOT PROTECTED UNDER NONCONFORMING AND BASED ON, SO I KIND OF GIVE THEM REASONS TO ACT ON A DENIAL OR REASONS TO ACT ON APPROVAL AND LEAVE IT STILL IN THEIR DECISION, BUT THEY WANT A LITTLE BIT MORE HANDHOLDING.
AND IF, IF MAKING THE STANDARD STAFF HAS NO OBJECTION TO THE GRANTING OF THIS VARIANCE, UM, IS THAT LIKE ONE WAY OR ANOTHER? IS THAT, YOU KNOW, I THINK THAT'S, I THINK THAT'S DOING YOUR PROFESSIONAL JOB OF LIKE YOU ARE YOU ALL OF US THAT ACT AS STAFF, YOU KNOW, ONE WAY OR ANOTHER.
WE'VE GOT EXPERIENCE IN DEALING WITH THESE ZONING CODES.
WE'VE PROBABLY READ THESE INDIVIDUAL ZONING CODES WAY TOO MANY TIMES, UM,
AND SO, YOU KNOW, WE'VE GOT THAT BACKGROUND THAT WE, YOU KNOW, WE'VE GOT THAT UNDERSTANDING OF WHERE TO FIND ALL THIS STUFF WHERE, YOU KNOW, THIS IS YOUR VOLUNTEER JOB AND YOU MAY NOT KNOW EVERY, YOU KNOW, MINUTIA OF THIS, THIS CODE OR LITTLE LIKE, 'CAUSE A LOT OF TIMES THESE THINGS GET HEMMED INTO LIKE ONE LINE IN THE MIDDLE OF A ZONING ORDINANCE.
THAT WOULD BE KIND OF A CHALLENGE TO FIND.
SO YEAH, SAYING THERE'S, WE HAVE NO OBJECTIONS TO THIS IS, YOU KNOW, NOT A PROBLEM.
AGAIN, IT ALL COMES DOWN TO WHAT YOUR LAW DIRECTOR AND YOUR ELECTED OFFICIALS WANT POLICY WISE.
I'VE SEEN IT EVERY DIFFERENT VARIATION.
SO DON, I CAN ONLY TELL, I'LL TELL YOU FROM MY STANDPOINT, I'M VERY APPRECIATIVE OF GETTING YOUR, YOUR INPUTS AND IF THE CITY STAFF SAW THAT THERE WAS A POTENTIAL ISSUE THAT WE OUGHT TO BE AWARE OF, LIKE IF APPROVING THIS WOULD SET A PRECEDENCE THAT MIGHT BE A PROBLEM.
MY PHILOSOPHY IS THAT THE, THE MORTGAGE ZONING APPEALS DOES NOT SET PRECEDENT.
WILL NOT MAKE PRECEDENT BECAUSE IT'S ON A CASE BY CASE BASIS.
HOWEVER, WE HAVE HOAS OUT THERE THAT, THAT HAVE RULES THAT ARE NOT.
UM, SO IF WE WERE IN A SITUATION WHERE A VARIANCE THAT WAS ASKED FOR, UM, TO BE IN CONFLICT WITH, I MIGHT MAKE A STATEMENT, THIS COULD BE A CONFLICT WITH THE COVENANT, BUT WE DON'T USE COVENANTS NOR DO WE ENFORCE THEM.
I, YOU KNOW, I HONESTLY, IN THE CODES I WRITE NOWADAYS, FOR THE MOST PART, I PUT LANGUAGE IN THE VERY UPFRONT THAT SAYS THE CITY'S NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR AND, UH, YOU KNOW, FOR ANY THIRD PARTY COVENANTS.
AND THEN I, I DON'T EVEN BOTHER GETTING INTO IT BECAUSE THE LAST THING, YOU KNOW, I, I DEFINITELY DON'T WANNA BE CAUGHT IN A SITUATION WHERE I MISINTERPRETED ERRORS HAPPENED BUT MISINTERPRETED THE CODE.
I DON'T WANNA BE IN POSITION OF MISINTERPRETING HOW THEIR, THEIR COVENANTS ARE APPLIED AND SAYING IT MIGHT BE IN CONFLICT WHEN IT ISN'T OR WHATEVER.
I JUST AVOID ANY MENTION OF THAT.
THAT'S ALL ON THE HOA AND WHETHER OR NOT THEY WANNA DEAL WITH IT CIVILLY.
I THINK IF SOMEBODY, YEAH, OBJECT.
BUT IF, LIKE, LET'S SAY YOUR REQUIREMENTS ARE POOLS TO BE SET BACK 10 FEET AND THE COVENANTS SAY 15, YOU'RE LOOKING AT IT, WELL, HOPEFULLY THEY AREN'T COMING IN FOR A VARIANCE AT THIS POINT, BUT THEY, YOU KNOW, THEY MAY, THEY SOMEBODY MIGHT SAY, WELL, THAT SAYS 15 AND THIS SAYS 10.
I'M GONNA ASK THEM TO VARY IT DOWN TO 10.
NO, YOU, YEAH, IT'S, YOU DON'T HAVE TO HAVE TO DO THAT.
THAT'S SO, YOU KNOW, IT'S YOUR JOB TO LOOK AT THE CODE AND THE CODE ONLY.
[01:35:01]
UM, SO WRAPPING THIS UP AGAIN, YOU KNOW, SOME OF THE THINGS YOU CAN DO IN YOUR KIND OF OPENING DISCUSSION, JUST LIKE YOU DID WITH THE AGENDA, IS ENCOURAGING FACTUAL TESTIMONY.THE MORE YOU CAN GIVE US FACTS AND WHERE THAT WAS FACTS COME FROM, IS THAT FROM THE CITY ENGINEER? IS IT FROM ODOT? YOU KNOW, THAT KIND OF INFORMATION IS VERY USEFUL TO KNOW THE SOURCE, UM, FOR YOU TO HAVE THE STANDARDS.
AND BY STANDARDS I MEAN SPECIFICALLY THOSE CRITERIA WHEN THEY'RE COMING IN FOR A VARIANCE TO HAVE THAT IN FRONT OF YOU BECAUSE YOU'RE GONNA BE DISCUSSING OFF OF THAT.
UM, YOU SPECIFICALLY, WHILE THERE CAN BE CROSS, UH, YOU KNOW, THERE CAN BE TESTIMONY BACK AND FORTH HERE YOU HAVE THE ABILITY TO ASK QUESTIONS AND YOU CAN ASK FOR INFORMATION, YOU CAN ASK FOR ALL OF THAT.
UM, I SAY KEEP RECORDS NEED AND COMPLETE, BUT I SEE YOU'RE RECORDING IT AND IT SOUNDS LIKE YOU'RE ALREADY GOOD TO GO ON THAT.
UM, KEEPING THE EVIDENCE PHASE SEPARATE FROM THE DELIBERATION PHASE I THINK IS CRITICAL.
UM, BECAUSE THE EVIDENCE PHASE IS WHERE THE PUBLIC IS HEAVILY INVOLVED.
AND SO YOU'LL OFTEN SEE, OKAY, WE'VE CLOSED THE PUBLIC HEARING, BUT THAT'S NOT CLOSING THE DELIBERATION.
SO THAT'S WHEN YOU START TO DELIBERATE AND YOU HAVE THE DISCUSSION AND YOU START TO FORMULATE YOUR KIND OF RESPONSE OF, YOU KNOW, YOU COULD LITERALLY AS A BOARD GO THROUGH EACH OF THOSE AND GO, OKAY, HOW DO YOU THINK THIS PLAYS OUT? YOU KNOW, WHATEVER THE FIRST CRITERIA IS.
AND YOU TALK IT THROUGH TO COME UP WITH YOUR MOTION.
AND SO THAT'S WHERE KIND OF JUST KEEPING RECORD OR YOU KNOW, HAVING SOMEBODY KIND OF RESPONSIBLE FOR SUMMARIZING THE BOARD'S THOUGHTS ON IT OR WHERE THERE MIGHT BE A LITTLE BIT OF A DISPUTE THAT, YOU KNOW, WHERE DO WE HAVE CONSENSUS ON THIS CRITERIA? UM, YOU KNOW, DELIBERATING THE FACTS AND ASSESSING COMPLIANCE EXPLICIT.
THE MORE YOU CAN GO, WELL, THIS IS WHAT IT SAYS AND HOW IT'S INTERPRETED THE BETTER.
'CAUSE AGAIN, YOU ARE JUST CROSS REFERENCING BACK TO THAT, THAT CODE THAT YOU'RE RESPONSIBLE FOR.
AND THEN ULTIMATELY, YOU KNOW, HAVING A PACKAGE OF APPLICATION, UH, YOU, YOUR STAFF IS DOING THAT, BUT ULTIMATELY HAVING THOSE NOTATIONS AND HAVING TO BE ABLE TO AGAIN, SPEAK TO EACH OF THOSE CRITERIA, IT'S GONNA BE ULTIMATELY WHAT PROTECTS YOU AND KIND OF DEMONSTRATES THAT YOU ARE GIVING PEOPLE DUE PROCESS.
YOU ARE USING THE PROCESS AND BEING UNBIASED AND YOU'RE MAKING VERY FAIR AND CLEAR DECISIONS.
WE BE FUTURE A WHAT CRITERIA THEY THAT
I'M GONNA GIVE YOU A SUMMARY WHY I THINK WHATEVER APPLICATION IS MEANING, BUT I KNOW THAT BECAUSE I'M A PROFESSIONAL PLANNER AND I DEAL WITH THIS DAY IN, DAY OUT, THE AVERAGE PERSON COMING IN AND ASKING FOR A FENCE SETBACK OR SWIMMING POOL SETBACK ARE PROBABLY GONNA DO IT ON THEIR OWN AND AREN'T GONNA BE AWARE OF THAT.
AND SO JUST, YOU KNOW, THEY MAY JUST FILL OUT A REAL QUICK SENTENCE, BUT THAT'S MORE THAN, YOU KNOW, A LOT OF THAT'S GONNA SAVE A LOT OF TIME ON EVERYBODY DOING THAT WORK.
ALL THE, ALL THE VARIANCES YOU REASONABLE ROCK IDENTIFIED WAS THE ONLY ONE WHO WAS DOING FOR THE SIGN.
THAT WAS, I WAS THINKING ABOUT THAT.
EVERYBODY ELSE HAS PRETTY MUCH BEEN HOMEOWNER YEAH.
SO I APPRECIATE WHAT YOU'RE SAYING, BUT WE HAVE SO FEW OF THOSE.
THE FOLKS, BUT SPEAKING FOR THEMSELVES.
WELL, AND THEY MAY NOT FILL OUT EVERY ONE BECAUSE I'VE READ SOME OF THOSE AND SOMETIMES IT'S LIKE, I DON'T KNOW HOW THIS WOULD APPLY, BUT IT GETS 'EM THINKING ABOUT IT AND IT GETS THEM PREPARED TO MAKE A DEFENSE.
AND I THINK IT'S JUST, EVEN IF THEY DON'T FILL ANYTHING OUT OR THEY ONLY FEEL PART OF IT OUT, IT'S, IT'S ONE STEP FORWARD.
UM, IN KIND OF GETTING THEM TO THINK ABOUT IT.
WE GIVE 'EM A COUPLE LINES TO MAKE ON BOARD
WELL, AND YOU KNOW, AGAIN, PART OF IT TOO IS, AND NOT, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE LIKE USE VARIANCES, YOU DON'T ALLOW THEM.
BUT HAVING THAT, IF YOU JUST ATTACH THAT PACKET THAT THOSE STANDARDS, IT SAYS YOU CAN'T DO IT.
UM, AND SO, YOU KNOW, IF THEY DON'T GET A CHANCE TO TALK TO YOU WHERE YOU CAN BE LIKE, DON'T EVEN TRY APPLYING FOR THIS.
YOU'RE NOT ALLOWED TO DO THIS.
YOU KNOW, THEY MIGHT READ IT AND GO, OH, ALL RIGHT, WELL THIS IS A POINTLESS ASK.
YOU HAVE TO HOW WE'LL DEBATE THAT.
SO, BUT THAT'S ALL I HAVE UNLESS YOU HAVE OTHER QUESTIONS.
ANYBODY AIN'T GOT ANY QUESTIONS? NO QUESTIONS.
WE REALLY APPRECIATE YOU, UH, COMING IN ASKING THROUGHOUT.
[01:40:01]
WE'VE BEEN ASKING QUESTIONS THROUGHOUT.I, I ALWAYS, 'CAUSE IT MIGHT BE A QUESTION THAT YOU GET HOME SAYING, I FORGOT.
WELL, IF YOU HAVE ANY QUESTIONS, IF YOU DO GET HOME, TALK TO THESE AND THEY KNOW, THEY KNOW WHERE I WELL WE APPRECIATE YOU COMING OUT AND US BEING THE FIRST, UH, COMMITTEE, UH, THIS, THIS WAS VERY HELPFUL ON SOME THINGS THAT WE NEED TO GO BACK AND FIND, TUNE WHAT WE DO AS A BOARD.
YOU KNOW, UM, WHAT I TOOK AWAY IS I'M GONNA GO BACK AND GO GET THAT BOOK TO HAVE ALL THE VARIS AND READ NO THE OHIO REVISED CODE SO WE CAN SO WELL, SO WITH YOU, IT'S NOT REALLY THE HIGH REVISED CODE.
IT'S, IT'S WHAT'S IN YOUR CODE IS WHAT YOU YEAH, THE CHARTER.
WHAT WE GOT THE BOOK THAT SAYS YEAH, YOUR HANDBOOK IS YEAH, THAT.
WELL WE GOT A BOOK TO TELL US WHEN WE SAY 1190 POINT IT, IT EXPLAIN WHAT IT IS.
SO YEAH, SO WE REALLY APPRECIATE, I THINK THIS WOULD HELP, UM, THE BOARD.
YOU WANNA GO AHEAD AND CLOSE? OKAY.
THE NEXT MEETING GONNA BE MAY 1ST, 2024 AND JUNE 5TH, 2024.
IF THERE'S NO MORE QUESTIONS, CAN I HAVE A MOTION TO ADJOURN? I MAKE A MOTION.
IT'S BEEN MOVED A SECOND THAT WE ADJOURNED AT 7 42.